Middle East Conflict

[Prestwich_Blue]

Some good points there but you haven't addressed about the Israeli settlements on Palestinian territory, Surely this is a key thing?

Yes it is. That solution would only work for Gaza. I think it was proposed at the time of the Oslo Accords that Israel would keep some settlements close to the pre-1967 borders and swap those for some land inside those borders. But that was when more rational and pragmatic heads prevailed, rather than the right-wing lunatics now running Israel.

 

[robbieh]

Up until the beginning of the last century the small number of Jews and the Arab majority who lived in Palestine got on fine. As they did in Andalusia, and elsewhere.
In fact they got on better with each other than they did the Christians.
So I disagree with those who claim this is about religion. It's about land.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Up until the beginning of the last century the small number of Jews and the Arab majority who lived in Palestine got on fine. As they did in Andalusia, and elsewhere.
In fact they got on better with each other than they did the Christians.
So I disagree with those who claim this is about religion. It's about land.

Around 15% of Israeli citizens are Muslims, so it's definitely not solely about religion.

 

[Ducado]

The solution to this particular mess in, theoretically at least, straightforward. Like Israel has with the Gulf States, the three sides (Israel, Egypt & Hamas) get talking, under the auspices of a neutral party.

• Hamas agrees to recognise Israel and cease military and other attacks.
• Israel recognises Hamas as the appointed representative of the people of Gaza (I doubt there's any prospect of free and fair elections in the short term).
• Israel & Egypt agree to open the border, maybe under neutral supervision initially, and relax controls.
• Investment from the US, EU, China, India etc is directed to improve the lives of the people of Gaza and make them self-sufficient.
• Arab countries agree to offer citizenship to anyone who doesn't want to remain in Gaza.
• After a period of time, say 5 years, Israel recognises Gaza as an independent state.

But theory and practice are, unfortunately two different things. If Hamas genuinely wanted a free, independent Gaza, they could have had that by now. But their current aim is the destruction of Israel.

Excellent post as always

In some ways it’s eventually going to be the end result it’s just going to take a while for the blood lust on both sides turns into a lust for peace and coexistence

I honestly believe that most of the population of Israel and Palestine want to live in peace free to go about their lives but unfortunately the hot heads on both sides with their simplistic slogans and unreal goals seem to prevail

 

[Streetsweeper]

The solution to this particular mess in, theoretically at least, straightforward. Like Israel has with the Gulf States, the three sides (Israel, Egypt & Hamas) get talking, under the auspices of a neutral party.

• Hamas agrees to recognise Israel and cease military and other attacks.
• Israel recognises Hamas as the appointed representative of the people of Gaza (I doubt there's any prospect of free and fair elections in the short term).
• Israel & Egypt agree to open the border, maybe under neutral supervision initially, and relax controls.
• Investment from the US, EU, China, India etc is directed to improve the lives of the people of Gaza and make them self-sufficient.
• Arab countries agree to offer citizenship to anyone who doesn't want to remain in Gaza.
• After a period of time, say 5 years, Israel recognises Gaza as an independent state.

But theory and practice are, unfortunately two different things. If Hamas genuinely wanted a free, independent Gaza, they could have had that by now. But their current aim is the destruction of Israel.

The problem with this (and it's a good idea) is that The Palestinian Territories, as recognised by the UN, the Oslo Accords and pretty much everyone else is Gaza and the West Bank. Right now, they have two separate governments (if you could describe Hamas thus) but that's a pretty significant demonstration of the viability or otherwise of a Palestinian state. Israel, the US and the UN recognise Fatah in the West Bank as the legitimate Palestinian Government so recognising Gaza as an independent state, even five years down the road isn't going to happen. I think we both know Hamas isn't going to recognise Israel, because Iran isn't ever going to recognise Israel. I do agree though, that one of the keys to this is giving the Palestinian people hope that a viable, successful Palestinian state isn't just possible, but that the world is working to make it happen, whether that's as 'Singapore on the Med' or through land deals in the Sinai with Egypt to create a state that actually has a chance to work.

I think realistically the only way to make that happen is to make the Palestinian Territories a UN protectorate, but I don't know if there's a will to do that.

 

[The perfect fumble]

This is ugly.....

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I think we both know Hamas isn't going to recognise Israel, because Iran isn't ever going to recognise Israel.

And that is the nub of the problem currently.

I think realistically the only way to make that happen is to make the Palestinian Territories a UN protectorate, but I don't know if there's a will to do that.

I smiled at that, as that's where this all started in earnest, when the UN took over the British mandate and went for partition. But your essential point, that there would need to be some sort of independent monitoring, is correct I think.

Up until the beginning of the last century the small number of Jews and the Arab majority who lived in Palestine got on fine. As they did in Andalusia, and elsewhere.

There were old-established, even ancient, large and vibrant Jewish communities in places like Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia for hundreds of years. In fact Babylon (now Iraq) was the centre of Jewish religious and cultural life for many years, following the exile at the time of the first Temple.

 

[Streetsweeper]

I smiled at that, as that's where this all started in earnest, when the UN took over the British mandate and went for partition. But your essential point, that there would need to be some sort of independent monitoring, is correct I think.

I know, I winced when I wrote it, but I'm not sure any other body would be trusted by both sides to do it - an ECOWAS style group of Arabic but Israel tolerant states perhaps?

 

[blueinsa]

This is ugly.....

Disgusting.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

What Germany did in the ghettoes in Poland was go in and shoot everyone to liquidate them. There’s only one thing that sounds familiar to that in the last two days and it’s nothing that Israel have done.

No, they’ve just been doing it for 75+ years.

Just a small snippet of recent IDF crimes committed against children:

West Bank: Spike in Israeli Killings of Palestinian Children

The Israeli military and border police forces are killing Palestinian children with virtually no recourse for accountability.

www.hrw.org

40% of Palestinian Children Detained by Israel Sexually Abused; Virtually All Tortured

According to a November report by the independent, non-governmental, human rights organization the Palestinian Prisoners Club (PPC), at least 600 Palestinian children have been arrested in Jerusalem alone in the past five months. Of these, roughly 40% were sexually abused. PPC attorney Mufeed...

bennorton.com

This doesn’t even take into account the countless atrocities committed on many thousands that have been murdered via bombs, killed during protests, settler attacks or entire villages wiped out during the Nakba.