Middle East Conflict

[SWP's back]

Just bought this 30 minutes ago, though fuck knows when I'm going to find the time to read it.

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Pretty much all the historians get accused of bias but this voluminous study has been well-received. A mate of mine who broadly sympathises with the Palestinian situation (or did before the latest set of events - haven't spoken to him recently) thought it was absolutely first-rate. It's readable too if you check out the sample pages on Amazon.

Unfortunately, it's also very expensive for a Penguin paperback. And 944 pages long.

A much shorter alternative is this book by Martin Bunton (who is unrelated to Emma as far as I know). I thought it was excellent and it has generally attracted favourable reviews.

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On the ground journalism can also be informative. Though it was published more than 20 years ago, Bunton recommends Amira Hass's Drinking the Sea at Gaza: Days and Nights in Land Under Siege. I have a copy but haven't read it yet.

Lastly, Robert Fisk's Pity the Nation was a personal eye-opener for me. It's actually about the civil war in the Lebanon between 1975 and 1990. In particular, his first-hand description of the Sabra and Chatila massacre left an indelible impression.

Hope this helps.

This is a compliment rather than a criticism but I’m quite shocked you’ve found a book you haven’t already read!

 

[robbieh]

Spot on. Hamas achieved fuck all militarily from their actions, but knew that the Palestinian people would reap the inevitable consequences. It proves Hamas couldn't give a fuck about the people of Palestine.

You're right but as I said before when Israel bulldozes houses and further encroaches on Palestinian land they too know their own people will suffer.

 

[meltonblue]

Something I am curious about is what has shaped people's views on this issue.

In my case, it has been reading these publications:

Robert Fisk Pity the Nation, The Great War for Civilisation (am aware of the criticisms that have been made of him, by the way).

Martin Bunton The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict - A Very Short Introduction

As to what compels people to do terrible things to each other, Philip Zimbardo's The Lucifer Effect is very good on that. Also, from Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind I learned that we are a tribalistic species who tend to make instantaneous moral and political judgements and then, only afterwards, come up with the justifications for them.

Brian Orend's The Morality of War is also a superb, very readable introduction to the ethics of armed conflict.

One other book is worth mentioning: Unfollow by Megan Phelps-Roper.

Phelps-Roper grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church but eventually left. This is an extraordinarily perceptive observation that she made retrospectively:

‘Doubt causes us to hold a strong position a bit more loosely, such that an acknowledgement of ignorance or error doesn’t crush our sense of self or leave us totally unmoored if our position proves untenable. Certainty is the opposite: it hampers enquiry and hinders growth. It teaches us to ignore evidence that contradicts our ideas, and encourages us to defend our position at all costs, even as it reveals itself as indefensible. Certainty sees compromise as weak, hypocritical, evil, suppressing empathy and allowing us to justify inflicting horrible pain on others.’

This immediately puts me in mind of organisations like Hamas. Their certainty comes from their view that everything they do is mandated, even commanded by God.

But, thinking of characters like Netanyahu and Putin, secular ideologies can also be construed in exactly this way.

As to where to go next, it would be these three books. Already have the first two but am thinking of also acquiring Shlaim's history.

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Enemies and Neighbours by Ian Black has been recommended to me too.

 

[tel aviv city]

Hi my is Ofer live in kfar saba Israel
57 and support city since 75
Ctid me and we are nearly dead hear , every one now family’s of dead, the situation is bad as ever
,be in qwarter semi and final in instunbul
Also ewood park and gillinnham
, our minds now with the fighters south and suddenly north both
, just led the England nation now with who
We get big damage on sat
We Gona win once for all
But Israel will never be the same as nobody ever damage us again
We built the hamas as thing of neighbours and live in piece
That finish !!
Nobody will ever think to attack us again !
Our country are suffering and count the bodies
- hopefully I come to etihad soon
Love you blue army
From the Israeli army

 

[Pelegrinni]

What would you describe 500 villages destroyed, 15000 slaughtered, 700,000 expelled from their homes and that was just during the Nakba. What we’ve witnessed since is a slow systematic ethnic cleansing and it’ll be turned up a few notches in the coming days & weeks of that I have no doubt. This has played right into the Bibi the butcher’s hands. The thought of what the IDF are going to the Palestinian civilians doesn’t bare thinking about based on their history.

They were not expelled. Historical records indicated that they were asked to leave by their fellow Arabs because of the impending war with Israel. And they don't want the Palestinians caught in the middle. Unfortunately, the Arabs lost that war. Those people who left could no longer return. They were prevented from returning by Israel. The Arabs who did not leave are all Israeli citizens today. More than 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs.
If there's anyone to blame for the Nakba, it should be Egypt and the others.

 

[metalblue]

Not really it's only up to a point, do you think the free pass would still hold if reports of mass starvation and 100,000s of deaths ? They are being allowed to vent their spleens there may be a limited ground offensive but I highly doubt Israel wants to get involved in an urban warfare situation, more importantly the US won't just stand aside and allow it to happen, the simple geo politics of it all matters

Can you imagine the fire it could light in the middle east? Remember fires in the Middle East tend to mean we all get burnt

You don’t mass vast numbers of troops on the Gaza border for a limited offensive. IDF surely going for complete control, they can’t leave a void for Hamas to refill. Going to be a bloody campaign on all sides.

A rubicon has been crossed

 

[inbetween]

I guess they can use the Egytian border to bring in food supplies. Israel is cutting off supplies which flows through their land.

If you think about it, how do you get AK47's, microlights and drones into a city surrounded by sophisticated mass surveillance?

It's obvious that these weapons are coming in through the Egyptian border or via tunnels near it and that's probably why the border remains closed to everything right now. Sea routes are also impossible as the Israeli Navy are shooting anything that moves in or out.

The Ukraine war has more than proven that wars are won or lost by supply lines. The Israeli's have cut that supply line and now it's just a matter of time.

They will run out of bullets and rockets eventually and it's at this point that the Hamas regime who are currently sunning it out in Qatar will need to think again. But actually I won't hold my breath because they will be enjoying the political collateral and new ability to make a few angry TikTok press conferences.

 

[trueblue1972]

They were not expelled. Historical records indicated that they were asked to leave by their fellow Arabs because of the impending war with Israel. And they don't want the Palestinians caught in the middle. Unfortunately, the Arabs lost that war. Those people who left could no longer return. They were prevented from returning by Israel. The Arabs who did not leave are all Israeli citizens today. More than 20% of the population of Israel are Arabs.
If there's anyone to blame for the Nakba, it should be Egypt and the others.

This is what I've been trying to explain , Isreal have done alot wrong , but alot.of the Palestinian land lost is due to their actions attacking Isreal , a message that doesn't seem to land, its important to understand both sides

 

[Ducado]

You don’t mass vast numbers of troops on the Gaza border for a limited offensive. IDF surely going for complete control, they can’t leave a void for Hamas to refill. Going to be a bloody campaign on all sides.

A rubicon has been crossed

Sure they will invade but an incursion into the centre of Garza and the resultant casualties? I am not so sure

 

[trueblue1972]

You don’t mass vast numbers of troops on the Gaza border for a limited offensive. IDF surely going for complete control, they can’t leave a void for Hamas to refill. Going to be a bloody campaign on all sides.

A rubicon has been crossed

I can't see them leaving untill they are sure they have wipped out Hammas