Middle East Conflict

Why not literally cut the country in half across say the Jerusalem line? Do Israel produce anything of note and need the land? That way the Arabs have a coast and border with Egypt etc. I dont think the Israelis help themselves when they go into areas and claim land etc. I cannot see how this will ever end, it’s two extreme ideologies although they share many common things within that, sadly I think they will also target Iran as well and then things will ramp up.
 
Palerider said:
Excellent post. Basically the problem is that Israel has western values whilst all it's neighbours have middle eastern values. Israel has been attacked by all it's neighbours so, not surprisingly, has developed a defensive strategy of fighting fire with greater fire. I watched an interview on Sky where the interviewee stated 'for this to be solved Palestine needs to lose it's victim complex and Israel needs to lose it's superior attitude'. Bottom line though is that unless you have reasonable people on both sides then negotiations and progress are impossible. Reasonable and the Middle East are not bed mates!
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I kind of agree and disagree, in parts you could be in just another European country, although a large percentage of the population are descendants of Middle Eastern Jewish communities who were expelled despite having roots in said countries that went back 1000s of years, there is still a sizable community in Iran believe it or not, they faced their own difficulties when they arrived in Israel, the country had been founded by European Ashkenazy Jews, the different groups had very little in common and way I digress

The difference is in the occupied territories, it's albatross around the countries neck, I think most secular Israelis would give it back for exchange of some genuine security guarantees, the problem as ever is the religious and secular right wing, who because it was originally part of the old Jewish lands they think it should be part of the new jewish lands
 
Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese said:
I'm saying neither side are legitimate in any conflict be it war or terrorism in terms of the intended or collateral slaughter of innocents. Sorry for your confusion.
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No that clarifies.
Neither side are legitimate.
So Israeli’s collective punishment and wilful killing of the innocent is a war crime regardless of the Hamas attack being an awful act of terrorism.

I agree.
 
inbetween said:
One of the biggest problems in the regions is that the hatred stems from religious hatred. It's not as simple as state land ownership, it goes beyond that to religion. There is also the problem that countries like Iran have a state policy which is to annihilate Israel.

Israel is not going to give up its territory as some want and that only leads to the eventual need for Israel to eliminate threats to that such as Hamas. However, Hamas know this, their goal is centred on encouraging third party involvement and the only counterbalance to that is the fact that the entire region fears western/US involvement.

The US is therefore an absolutely key mediator. It is the only country that can restrain Israel and it is the only country feared by powerful states such as Iran. However the US blew it's neutral position several years ago because of an idiotic move by Trump and now it's led by a clueless 80 year old who doesn't know what day it is.
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There are a fair few Palestinian Christians as well they are not all Muslims, I think people overplay the religious side (many because they think it's cool and edgy) prior to the 90's there was no such thing as militant Islamic groups in Palestine or anywhere else yet they were killing each other, they were secular groups some made up of Muslims and Christians, Israel itself is quite a secular country although the religious right are trying to change things, Jews and Arabs and Muslims and Christians can all live together in fact in many countries they actually do
 
Chippy_boy said:
I'd say there's not a long they CAN do about it, since they are never going to get all the mad gunmen and all that will happen is they'd kill many innocent people and make martyrs of others. So perhaps a good analogy.

Israel has ZERO chance of wiping out Hamas, since it will simply be re-stocked with weapons from Iran, Syria and anywhere else sympathetic to their cause. It is a futile task that will simply kill many more thousands of innocent people, for no gain. In fact the opposite of gain, since worldwide support for Israel will be damaged and Paletinians only more determined to strike Israel again.
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Ask yourself this, why did Hamas do what it did last week? Why is Israel attracting universal condemnation for quite simply defending itself from continuous attack? It's bizarre that so many people challenge Israel but they don't challenge the aggravating factor which is continued Hamas terrorism. If Hamas didn't do what it did, what is happening now would never have happened. Hamas is responsible for thousands of Palestinian deaths but that's what they want.

I ask again what do you seriously expect them to do? 1000+ Israeli's were murdered last week and Israel is responding. Seriously what is the proper response other than a large military response directed at source? You can't argue that it hasn't been effective because how many Hamas terrorists have jumped the fence since? A ground campaign is imminent and that will reduce Hamas to essentially nothing and the attacks will then ultimately stop.

It's easy for us to cry about humanity whilst sat in our cosy warm homes thousands of miles from these problems. I challenge anyone facing imminent attack to ask for anything else. If it was me then forget humanity, I'd drop two bombs just to make sure if that meant saving the lives of myself, my family and friends.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Just seen some footage of an Israeli reserve brigade driving what looks like Hummers with a turret and canon on the top. Not being funny but the driver sat behind a Hummer windscreen will not being funny but the driver pretty vulnerable behind a windscreen and once and something the Ukraine/Russia conflict has shown is an immobilised turret is pretty fucking vulnerable. I am starting to see that so called military super powers tend to get high on their own supply and can learn the reality in a harsh way
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The Humvee windscreen is balistic glass so will survive pretty well. Penetration depends on the depth of the glass.
2 layers stops a heavy machine gun at all but close range - 6 stops chain and is possibly stronger than the vehicle armour
 
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