Middle East Conflict

[grunge]

The west did it with Isis, Israel can do it with Hamas.

For me that feels like an overly simplified view. ISIS was a separate group that spread out over large area's, into its own camps trying to take over large areas of the middle east. it had the west, Iraq and Syria all fighting against it. Based on the fact it was the middle east and the west, as well as not being embedded in what is a tiny area full of civilians mean they could be hit hard without causing too many martyrs.

Hamas is well embedded within a civilian population. they would be able to be taken out entirely without vast civilian casualties and therefor more martyr's and more extremism being breed into the area.

 

[inbetween]

What do you think the method is, and what's the endgame?

It's a genuine question.

I can't see how Hamas can be wiped off the planet without wiping out two million Gazans too.

So what is Israel's plan?

Kill everyone - by either arms, starvation or thirst?
Keep killing until there are no live hostages left, then leave the territory to it's own devices, denuded of all resources?
Kill enough to occupy the territory, them stay as occupiers?

I've every sympathy with the plight of Israel faced with the appalling barbarity of Hamas, but I honestly don't understand what an acceptable endpoint to this could possibly be.

Peaceful negotiation is just not going to happen. The Israeli government is essentially not going to settle for anything other than the elimination of Hamas and by default that means the deaths of many civilians. The greater question requires brokered peace and that isn't going to happen anytime soon either.

The west can pressurise Israel to stop but is Iran going to pressurise Hamas to stop? Of course not, they're doing the opposite and that is further fuelling the fire. The west should pressurise Israel but it can also do even more by imposing additional sanctions on Iran and the states which support the Hamas/Hezbollah regimes. I'm not sure if that idiot Biden has it in him though, he's been asleep throughout this whole thing so far.

In my opinion the Palestinians are going to suffer for a long time and they should be helped to safety and aid until the violence stops at the very least.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

The west did it with Isis, Israel can do it with Hamas.

Do what though? What's the endgame? ISIS, was to support Iraqi govt to defeat them then govern the areas they previously controlled, right? What's the equivalent endgame here?

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Peaceful negotiation is just not going to happen. The Israeli government is essentially not going to settle for anything other than the elimination of Hamas and by default that means the deaths of many civilians. The greater question requires brokered peace and that isn't going to happen anytime soon either.

The west can pressurise Israel to stop but is Iran going to pressurise Hamas to stop? Of course not, they're doing the opposite and that is further fuelling the fire. The west should pressurise Israel but it can also do even more by imposing additional sanctions on Iran and the states which support the Hamas/Hezbollah regimes. I'm not sure if that idiot Biden has it in him though, he's been asleep throughout this whole thing so far.

In my opinion the Palestinians are going to suffer for a long time and they should be helped to safety and aid until the violence stops at the very least.

Sure, so what actually is the plan? What does "eliminate Hamas" actually mean in practice, beyond a comforting slogan? That's what isn't obvious to me at all.

 

[Vic]

Part of the method is to destroy houses or blocks where the IDF could be ambushed during an invasion of Gaza. These properties could have civilians or terrorists in them (or be empty). It’s about risk management.

So every building in Gaza...

 

[inbetween]

Sure, so what actually is the plan? What does "eliminate Hamas" actually mean in practice, beyond a comforting slogan? That's what isn't obvious to me at all.

That is a question for Israel, they aren't going to settle for anything less.

You would expect that the fall of the Hamas leadership would be the endpoint but they're being sheltered in other countries such as Turkey or Qatar. This is where the west can and should intervene.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

That is a question for Israel, they aren't going to settle for anything less.

You would expect that the fall of the Hamas leadership would be the endpoint but they're being sheltered in other countries such as Turkey or Qatar. This is where the west can and should intervene.

Well, it's also a question for you, as you're advocating it, I think?

To me, it doesn't seem possible without a literal genocide against Gazans. And even the fall of the leadership (which as you point out, isn't going to happen) wouldn't eliminate the problem. So I don't understand what is planned.

 

[domalino]

When you say “native”, what year is year zero for being native? There weren’t Arabs there before their successful conquest of that land in the 8th century from the Byzantines.

The Byzantines having forced the Jews out themselves in their previous incarnation around 700 years prior to that.

To which historical point are we meant to return that land to ‘x’ people?

I'm not the one going back in time to decide when land belonged to tribe X.

They were native because they were the ones living there before Churchill, Balfour et al. decided to parachute in a group of people who didn't live there.

That the Arabs had been there for 1300 years and Judea was destroyed 1900 years ago is pretty irrelevant.

As was said before my comment, If someone decided to give 30 million Germans land in Britain, you wouldn't give a shit about their claim that they were the descendants of Anglo-Saxons retruning to their land after being wiped out by the Normans following 1066.

NB - None of this was about whether an Israel should exist or not. It was about the British attitude towards the people who'd been living in the land for centuries, which was that they were a lower race of people that should just get over the fact half their land had been given away to people they didn't know. That the Jewish people would be given control of the land by the British as soon as they had enough numbers to marginalise the existing people living there, and if the natives weren't happy with that arrangement then fuck off to Syria or Iraq with the other Arabs.

 

[inbetween]

Well, it's also a question for you, as you're advocating it, I think?

To me, it doesn't seem possible without a literal genocide against Gazans. And even the fall of the leadership (which as you point out, isn't going to happen) wouldn't eliminate the problem. So I don't understand what is planned.

Israel is not going to stop however you have to consider why they won't stop. Everyday the rockets continue to fly into Israel and Hamas continues to hold some number of hostages so why would they stop?

Israel will only agree to a ceasefire if the rockets stop and the hostages are released, that's your endpoint.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Peaceful negotiation is just not going to happen. The Israeli government is essentially not going to settle for anything other than the elimination of Hamas and by default that means the deaths of many civilians. The greater question requires brokered peace and that isn't going to happen anytime soon either.

The west can pressurise Israel to stop but is Iran going to pressurise Hamas to stop? Of course not, they're doing the opposite and that is further fuelling the fire. The west should pressurise Israel but it can also do even more by imposing additional sanctions on Iran and the states which support the Hamas/Hezbollah regimes. I'm not sure if that idiot Biden has it in him though, he's been asleep throughout this whole thing so far.

In my opinion the Palestinians are going to suffer for a long time and they should be helped to safety and aid until the violence stops at the very least.

This is the horrible conundrum Israel faces. Going after Hamas the way they are, and killing what they consider to be an 'acceptable' number of civillians for every terrorist, is in danger of reducing them to the same level as the terrorists in the eyes of many. Horrible situation.