Middle East Conflict

Metal Biker said:
Out of interest, what proof do you have, outside of the PA telling you it was, that Israel was responsible, bearing in mind all the evidence that has since come to light?
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What in my comment made you think 1) I was adamant Israel did it and 2) had any evidence to prove they did it? Of course I don’t have any evidence and I don’t think any news outlet has shown concrete evidence one way or the other.

This is the problem with social media/forums. There’s no nuance for debate. Everyone has to pick a side don’t they. You’ve literally not read my post if you think I’m definitively saying it’s Israel. I simply said I feel currently it’s more probable given they are bombing Gaza.

If more evidence, images and videos come to light I might start to believe it was a Palestinian rocket.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Well if you were Hamas and you were aware of what rockets you and your terrorist friends were launching . Ie no big ones. Then you would pretty quickly be able to establish that it wasn't your side would you not??
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There’s always debris from these missiles that survives and make it possible to work out who made it.

If it was an American or Israeli missile I do think there’s be pictures of the debris all over the internet by now.

The Americans obviously are pretty convinced it was Hamas or they’d have pulled Biden’s trip.

The audio recordings are similar to ones we’ve had out of Ukraine so while I don’t fully trust them they are believable.


I think the balance of probabilities is tilting in Israel’s favour, personally I’m probably 75:25 that Hamas did it now.
 
Rascal said:
I would love you to explain how the left have jumped into bed with Islam

“Religion is the opium of the people. It is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of our soulless conditions."

Karl Marx.

The left want to abolish religion, it favours secular humanism.
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"These are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others"

Groucho Marx.
 
BobKowalski said:
Biden may want a two state solution, but Netanyahu doesn’t want one and getting rid of Israeli settlements will be portrayed as Hamas winning and spark civil strife in Israel. Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution either.

Netanyahu and Hamas have driven both peoples up a blind ally where the only option left is hostility and death.

Not sure there is a way forward with any of the current leadership in charge.
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The only alternative is to have all Palestinians be equal citizens with Israeli citizens, you know legal rights freedom of movement that sort of thing we take for granted
 
BobKowalski said:
Biden may want a two state solution, but Netanyahu doesn’t want one and getting rid of Israeli settlements will be portrayed as Hamas winning and spark civil strife in Israel. Hamas doesn’t want a two state solution either.

Netanyahu and Hamas have driven both peoples up a blind ally where the only option left is hostility and death.

Not sure there is a way forward with any of the current leadership in charge.
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Agreed.
 
So Isreal attacked the hospital three days before, based on evidence of Isreali munitions discovered in the debris and had warned the hospital three times before the attack that it was a target acording to ITN and interviews with hospital management. Idf also stating that they had attacked a hamas base at the hospital in a tweet then deleting it.

ITN news offering a much more detailed and dare I say it balanced analysis than the BBC.
 
bugsyblue said:
What in my comment made you think 1) I was adamant Israel did it and 2) had any evidence to prove they did it? Of course I don’t have any evidence and I don’t think any news outlet has shown concrete evidence one way or the other.

This is the problem with social media/forums. There’s no nuance for debate. Everyone has to pick a side don’t they. You’ve literally not read my post if you think I’m definitively saying it’s Israel. I simply said I feel currently it’s more probable given they are bombing Gaza.

If more evidence, images and videos come to light I might start to believe it was a Palestinian rocket.
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So you don't believe the footage of the rocket malfunctioning in flight and hitting the hospital?
You disbelieve GeoConfirmed's conclusion (who have done stellar work pinpointing incidents durng the Ukraine/Russian Invasion) that the rocket that hit the hospital was fired from within Gaza itself? Israel's own denial, the United States claim that backs up it was done by Islamic Jihad, or the images that it was the car park and not the hospital itself that was hit, like the PA initially claimed?

Yet "all the evidence points to it being Israel"? Again, I ask you, what is this "evidence" you speak of?
 
domalino said:
There’s always debris from these missiles that survives and make it possible to work out who made it.

If it was an American or Israeli missile I do think there’s be pictures of the debris all over the internet by now.

The Americans obviously are pretty convinced it was Hamas or they’d have pulled Biden’s trip.

The audio recordings are similar to ones we’ve had out of Ukraine so while I don’t fully trust them they are believable.


I think the balance of probabilities is tilting in Israel’s favour, personally I’m probably 75:25 that Hamas did it now.
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How do you explain the deleted tweets by the IDF, the previous attacks and munitions found at the hospital and the warnings the hospital management say they received that they were a target and should evacuate. Is it all staged and lies?

The IDF has also said that the terrorists were launching missiles from directly behind the hospital and then releasing a map showing the rockets being launched hundreds of meters away.

I can see quite a few inconsistencies in the IDF explanation?
 
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I think Bidens visit was very Ill advised, and it could have made it worse, however we don’t know what has gone on behind the scenes, perhaps it was to stop a ground invasion and he had to visit, but from an Arab point of view it looks terrible and just strengthens Iran
 
Metal Biker said:
So you don't believe the footage of the rocket malfunctioning in flight and hitting the hospital?
You disbelieve GeoConfirmed's conclusion (who have done stellar work pinpointing incidents durng the Ukraine/Russian Invasion) that the rocket that hit the hospital was fired from within Gaza itself? Israel's own denial, the United States claim that backs up it was done by Islamic Jihad, or the images that it was the car park and not the hospital itself that was hit, like the PA initially claimed?

Yet "all the evidence points to it being Israel"? Again, I ask you, what is this "evidence" you speak of?
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Do you not understand that after watching Israel level whole neighbourhoods with dozens of rockets of similar power it seems like too much of a coincidence that the only rocket that would lead to a war crimes tribunal just happens not to be someone else's rocket?

Have theire been any similar explosion caused by enemy rockets landing on Israeli territory?
 
Eebo said:
Do you not understand that after watching Israel level whole neighbourhoods with dozens of rockets of similar power it seems like too much of a coincidence that the only rocket that would lead to a war crimes tribunal just happens not to be someone else's rocket?

Have theire been any similar explosion caused by enemy rockets landing on Israeli territory?
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All you have is speculation. I'm asking for facts about this incident and getting nothing to the contrary.
That is especially telling.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
So Isreal attacked the hospital three days before, based on evidence of Isreali munitions discovered in the debris and had warned the hospital three times before the attack that it was a target acording to ITN and interviews with hospital management. Idf also stating that they had attacked a hamas base at the hospital in a tweet then deleting it.

ITN news offering a much more detailed and dare I say it balanced analysis than the BBC.
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A different hospital
 
Eebo said:
Do you not understand that after watching Israel level whole neighbourhoods with dozens of rockets of similar power it seems like too much of a coincidence that the only rocket that would lead to a war crimes tribunal just happens not to be someone else's rocket?

Have theire been any similar explosion caused by enemy rockets landing on Israeli territory?
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I have asked that last question, no one has provided any evidence to date?
 
Metal Biker said:
All you have is speculation. I'm asking for facts about this incident and getting nothing to the contrary.
That is especially telling.
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How about the isreali IDF tweet saying they had struck a hospital that was hiding hamas terrorists. Which was then quickly deleted. That's a fact. Why would you post that just after the attack and then delete it?? Please explain what has happened here in your opinion.

The senior IDF guy who posted it was responsible for disseminating social media information on behalf of the IDF. It was his job. It wasnt exactly a random tweet by someone not in the know was it?

To give some context the source and authenticity of that tweet is as far as I am aware is not in dispute.

Compare that to the IDF released wire tapping calls of Hamas terrorists admitting it was from their side. Absolutely no evidence to say that is a genuine recording of the terrorists is there ??
 
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Eebo said:
Do you not understand that after watching Israel level whole neighbourhoods with dozens of rockets of similar power it seems like too much of a coincidence that the only rocket that would lead to a war crimes tribunal just happens not to be someone else's rocket?

Have theire been any similar explosion caused by enemy rockets landing on Israeli territory?
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It landed in a packed car park, plenty of extra boom already there, god knows what else was stored there too. It wasn't a JDAM anyway going off the lack of a huge crater and a demolished building.
 
Dax777 said:
Yes, Hamas is all wrong. Nothing about them is right. But most on the left will not be caught dead saying it. Which confirms this is not merely about right and wrong. It's partly about it. But not wholly.

I mean, how can anyone not see Hamas is just plain wrong for Palestinians? They shoot rockets from Cemeteries near a hospitals in Palestinian land. :(

This is a group with a 15% -25% failure rate on their rocket launches and still they take so little precaution.

If it was about right and wrong, it's clear as day this group is ALL Wrong.
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Don’t agree with this, unless you’re talking about a very small fraction of the far left and generalising by accident. I know plenty of people on the left that are big supporters of the Palestinian cause that completely denounce Hamas. If anything they’re more vocal about it as they don’t solely react to their atrocities when huge events like this happen. The Palestinian people to them are being oppressed by both Hamas and by the blockade.
 
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