Middle East Conflict

[halfcenturyup]

Israel is not going to eliminate Hamas as a force, political or military, anytime soon.
So the Israelis will kill more Hamas fighters than the soldiers they will lose but wars aren't decided by scores, they are decided by political outcomes, war being an extension of politics by other means.
What not many people have considered is what political effect this is going to have on the Palestinian population of the West Bank where Fatah is very much discredited and seen as an impotent Israeli stooge.
I predict, when the fighting stops and the dust settles,Hamas will end up stronger politically and therefore militarily.

On the brighter side, Netanyahu will be finished and probably in jail so we may just see a more reasonable government in Israel. Or not, of course.

 

[Dax777]

Let's not be so arrogant to think that "the West" hasn't been in conflict long before there was a West.

I don't understand this response. It touches on nothing at issue.

I said nothing about an absence of conflict in the West. Rather that just like there was conflict in the West, there were conflicts in the middle East. Long before the West had any power to even influence anyone.

 

[Dax777]

Israel is not going to eliminate Hamas as a force, political or military, anytime soon.
So the Israelis will kill more Hamas fighters than the soldiers they will lose but wars aren't decided by scores, they are decided by political outcomes, war being an extension of politics by other means.
What not many people have considered is what political effect this is going to have on the Palestinian population of the West Bank where Fatah is very much discredited and seen as an impotent Israeli stooge.
I predict, when the fighting stops and the dust settles,Hamas will end up stronger politically and therefore militarily.

Well, we are all about to find out how true that is.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Well, we are all about to find out how true that is.

"Mission accomplished" in a month, and then a gradual recognition that nothing has changed for the better at all?

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Those dangerously big brains have also previously led us back from oblivion every time to be fair.

We’ll keep unnecessarily killing each other but we’re still a long way from being fucked yet.

There’s a long way to go though. I think we’re bound to do it at some point, tragically.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

What do you think Israel should do? Pat HAMAS on the back and say"Well Done - You got us there!!"
There are consequences for your homeland / fifedom if you declare war.

The terrorists have the hostages in tunnels
many metres below the ground. They aren’t in school classrooms, hospital wards or queues for bakeries. The military tactics to beat Hamas require Hamas to be defeated in those tunnels.

You still didn’t respond to my observation about the 2 million people protest through London before the second gulf war. Could it be that it doesn’t agree with your agenda?

 

[metalblue]

Well this puts to bed any suggestion that Israel’s fight is with Hamas not the Palestinian people…….

“

'There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza'​

Gazans working in Israel will be sent back to the besieged enclave, the Israeli government has announced.
“Israel is severing all contact with Gaza. There will be no more Palestinian workers from Gaza. Those workers from Gaza who were in Israel on the day of the outbreak of the war will be returned to Gaza,” a post from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s office on X, formerly Twitter, read.
Israel’s security cabinet also agreed to “deduct all funds designated for the Gaza Strip… from Palestinian Authority [PA] funds”. The PA has control over areas of the occupied West Bank, but not the Hamas-run Gaza Strip.

Some 18,500 Palestinians from Gaza had received permits to enter Israel before the deadly 7 October attack by Hamas militants, according to Cogat, the Israeli defence body responsible for Palestinian civilian affairs.
Since then, Israel has launched a retaliatory bombardment of the Strip. More than 9,000 people have been killed here, according to the Hamas-run health ministry.”

 

[Ducado]

With Blinkin over there fighting fires that he and his boss helped start, we may see a humanitarian pause, they have certainly telegraphed it

All eyes on Nasrallahs Friday sermon, I suspect increasing American jitters about the huge amount of civilian casualties and this speech are certainly worrying the White House, also the amount of pressure they are under from allies around the world some of them are strategic allies as well

The Americans have not come across well, it’s actually been a diplomatic disaster for them, so they really need to pull a number of rabbits out of the hat

What they could do immediately is

Make further aid conditional on stopping the violence and land grabs on the West Bank

Make firm plans for a regional peace conference with all major powers including China

 

[Mon Autre]

Go on then give me an alternative that prevents Hamas from appearing to advance to the goals laid out in its founding charter for the destruction of all Jews.
No one can, perhaps you can have a try.

Here's an alternative. Netanyahu stops supporting them and is also held to account for his role in helping them get to where they are.

While we're at it, let's also hold the bastard to account for his failures to protect his own people and for the genocide he's inflicting on thousands of innocent people.

 

[Blue Maverick]

If they disrupt the remembrance day parade they will lose lots of support, just fuck off for one day.

 

[M18CTID]

If they disrupt the remembrance day parade they will lose lots of support, just fuck off for one day.

I thought they were doing it the day before on the 11th? And while 11th November is Remembrance Day, the Remembrance Day parade itself is a day later on Remembrance Sunday

 

[Roachy]

I would say so from my experiences with them. Some Zionists are obviously more extreme than others, but the underlying fact is that Zionism is racist and supremacist ideology.

I can't comment on your personal experiences and won't disagree that there may be more extremist elements within that movement. The last part though falls into 95% of what is posted on here - opinion.

 

[halfcenturyup]

With Blinkin over there fighting fires that he and his boss helped start, we may see a humanitarian pause, they have certainly telegraphed it

All eyes on Nasrallahs Friday sermon, I suspect increasing American jitters about the huge amount of civilian casualties and this speech are certainly worrying the White House, also the amount of pressure they are under from allies around the world some of them are strategic allies as well

The Americans have not come across well, it’s actually been a diplomatic disaster for them, so they really need to pull a number of rabbits out of the hat

What they could do immediately is

Make further aid conditional on stopping the violence and land grabs on the West Bank

Make firm plans for a regional peace conference with all major powers including China

At some point the US also needs to make some bold steps with Iran too. All this dick waving from both sides isn't getting anyone anywhere.

So in the same way they can trade off normalisation of Arab states' relationships  with Israel in return for a two-state solution, they can offer Iran something they want in return for stopping funding and arms supply to anti-Israeli groups. Now, I wonder what Iran wants?

I get it: the revolution wasn't great for the West, the hostage situation was pretty bad, the botched rescue attempt was embarrassing, and yes I know Iran has supported terrorism, but the US has been fomenting rebellion in Iran for decades too. Time for some grown-up diplomacy, and once weapons and funding dry up, Hamas and Hezbollah disappear up their own arses.

It's hard to see the US making any bold moves, though, with the political mess they are in and an election coming up.

 

[Blue Maverick]

I thought they were doing it the day before on the 11th? And while 11th November is Remembrance Day, the Remembrance Day parade itself is a day later on Remembrance Sunday

I got the impression it was the same time

 

[M18CTID]

I got the impression it was the same time

Not as far as I know. Not even the same day. Wankers like Laurence Fox shit stirring on Twitter about it

 

[inbetween]

At some point the US also needs to make some bold steps with Iran too. All this dick waving from both sides isn't getting anyone anywhere.

So in the same way they can trade off normalisation of Arab states' relationships  with Israel in return for a two-state solution, they can offer Iran something they want in return for stopping funding and arms supply to anti-Israeli groups. Now, I wonder what Iran wants?

I get it: the revolution wasn't great for the West, the hostage situation was pretty bad, the botched rescue attempt was embarrassing, and yes I know Iran has supported terrorism, but the US has been fomenting rebellion in Iran for decades too. Time for some grown-up diplomacy, and once weapons and funding dry up, Hamas and Hezbollah disappear up their own arses.

It's hard to see the US making any bold moves, though, with the political mess they are in and an election coming up.

The US is right to cause rebellion in Iran because Iran has a dangerous and backward dictatorship. The Iranian people are suppressed and it is questionable whether they support the Iranian regime but they have no choice. In Iran you can essentially be executed in the street for protesting against the Iranian regime.

It's similar to the Palestinians and Hamas, the views of the Palestinian people are likely separated from the lunatics in charge of the asylum. Do the Palestinians want this war with Israel? I seriously doubt it. Do Iranians want war with the US, a country that could flatten Tehran in a heartbeat? I doubt that even more.

The weirdest thing about all of this is many of these countries are actually very pro-western in terms of culture. It's very ordinary for many in these countries to watch western movies and tv shows or eat western food. They clearly want to be aligned to the west but geopolitics and dictatorship holds them back.

It makes complete sense then for the west to try and push these countries closer to alignment. Look at how the UAE and Saudi Arabia are changing, they've achieved nothing after centuries sat in the dark ages and now with western support and alignment they're growing into somewhat more modern and liberal societies. The only thing absent in these countries really is democracy.

 

[dublinblue12]

Go on then give me an alternative that prevents Hamas from appearing to advance to the goals laid out in its founding charter for the destruction of all Jews.
No one can, perhaps you can have a try.

If they are seen as such a threat to Jewish existence, why does Netanyahu by his own admission consider them so important to the Israeli state?

 

[Vic]

If people stuck to just Remembrance Sunday it would help. It's a relatively modern thing to make Armistice Day itself another "day to remember". Remembrance Sunday had been intended to commemorate other wars than WW1, having first been introduced in WW2 so weekday war work wasn't disrupted. A few years ago The Royal British Legion asked for the two minute silence to be observed on 11 November as well for one particular anniversary (I can't recall which) and it seems now to be an annual request, and more events on the 11th which (IMO) detracts from Remembrance Sunday events.

 

[Vic]

...Look at how the UAE and Saudi Arabia are changing, they've achieved nothing after centuries sat in the dark ages and now they're growing into somewhat more modern and liberal societies. The only thing absent in these countries really is democracy.

And leaders who don't personally murder journalists. Iran is more liberal than Saudi Arabia (which is not a hard test).

 

[Ducado]

The US is right to cause rebellion in Iran because Iran has a dangerous and backward dictatorship. The Iranian people are suppressed and it is questionable whether they support the Iranian regime but they have no choice. In Iran you can essentially be executed in the street for protesting against the Iranian regime.

It's similar to the Palestinians and Hamas, the views of the Palestinian people are likely separated from the lunatics in charge of the asylum. Do the Palestinians want this war with Israel? I seriously doubt it. Do Iranians want war with the US, a country that could flatten Tehran in a heartbeat? I doubt that even more.

The weirdest thing about all of this is many of these countries are actually very pro-western in terms of culture. It's very ordinary for many in these countries to watch western movies and tv shows or eat western food. They clearly want to be aligned to the west but geopolitics and dictatorship holds them back.

It makes complete sense then for the west to try and push these countries closer to alignment. Look at how the UAE and Saudi Arabia are changing, they've achieved nothing after centuries sat in the dark ages and now with western support and alignment they're growing into somewhat more modern and liberal societies. The only thing absent in these countries really is democracy.

Sure the US could flatten Tehran, but the Iranians could just as easily block the gulf shipping lanes, what would hurt more?

I don't have a problem with your characterisation of the Iranian Regime but you have to remember they are there because of the interference of the US and British governments in Iranian affairs and hoisting a dictator upon them every bit as bad as the current regime

We all know what the key to unlocking all this, its coming up with a just solution to the the Palestinian problem, it's a festering wound in the Middle East and a rallying point for blood thirty fanatics also this conflict is now threatening normalisation in the region

The Iranian issue will have to be sorted out by the Iranian people anything else will be rejected