Middle East Conflict

[Mr Kobayashi]

I honestly do not know what to reply. Many seem to hate each other, it's a war, someone will end up winning and someone will end up losing. A lot of people who could not care less whether the land is called Israel or Palestine will/have died. A lot of people who do care whether the land is called Israel/Palestine will/have died. I'm suggesting we try something a bit different to death.

Is it possible that they've already tried peaceful resistance and it didn't work out?

2018–2019 Gaza border protests - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[inbetween]

Agreed, but the 1 million dollar question is: who is 'we' ???

Extremists on both sides don't fancy painful compromises, which would be made by moderates though to reach a higher long term goal.

To disarm the extremists the moderates would have to radicalize, but that doesn't make much sense. We are lost.

And this is ultimately the problem of the arguments against Israel. We can recognise the faults of Israel but we can't not recognise the reality that Israel is an internationally recognised country and will remain so.

Resistance against Israel because of its actions and treatment of Palestinians is understandable but either way the cause of the Palestinians isn't helped by that resistance. For there to be peace the Palestinians need a vocal authority that knows more than bullets as Israel will just use resistance violence as a free pass to do whatever it wants.

The IRA ultimately was never going to be able to achieve its aims but still NI/Ireland did not see progress towards the peace until the IRA agreed to lay down its arms.

 

[The blue phantom]

Is it possible that they've already tried peaceful resistance and it didn't work out?

2018–2019 Gaza border protests - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Some of these posters are absolutely fuckin deluded. They seem to think the Occupation and theft of land isn't a problem. Convinced everything started on the 7th October. They know there's just less than ZERO percent chance the Israeli Goverment will ever remove the 700'000 Settlers off Stolen Land. Until that happens the Palestinians will fight on, Rightly so too.

 

[inbetween]

Some of these posters are absolutely fuckin deluded. They seem to think the Occupation and theft of land isn't a problem. Convinced everything started on the 7th October. They know there's just less than ZERO percent chance the Israeli Goverment will ever remove the 700'000 Settlers off Stolen Land. Until that happens the Palestinians will fight on, Rightly so too.

The same delusion exists on the other side. Do people honestly think that Israel is going to just dissolve and all will be well? The west is never going to do that, the only way it could be achieved is through Iran dropping a nuclear bomb, not going to happen either.

The real solution is the middle road but you don't get a middle road with extremists on either side. Extremism on one side unfortunately breeds extremism on the other, that's the problem.

The two must coexist somehow but neither currently want that. Indeed Israel is the greatest contributor to the problem but some sort of solution has to be found or else ongoing war is the only option.

 

[Palerider]

Agreed, but the 1 million dollar question is: who is 'we' ???

Extremists on both sides don't fancy painful compromises, which would be made by moderates though to reach a higher long term goal.

To disarm the extremists the moderates would have to radicalize, but that doesn't make much sense. We are lost.

Good points. The moderates basically need to eradicate the extremists in their own countries! Which means civil war on top of the current conflict. What a mess.

And this is ultimately the problem of the arguments against Israel. We can recognise the faults of Israel but we can't not recognise the reality that Israel is an internationally recognised country and will remain so.

Resistance against Israel because of its actions and treatment of Palestinians is understandable but either way the cause of the Palestinians isn't helped by that resistance. For there to be peace the Palestinians need a vocal authority that knows more than bullets as Israel will just use resistance violence as a free pass to do whatever it wants.

The IRA ultimately was never going to be able to achieve its aims but still NI/Ireland did not see progress towards the peace until the IRA agreed to lay down its arms.

Some people just see it in 'Winning' and 'Losing' terms whilst many of us do not particularly care who wins and loses and just see it as a 'Living' or 'Dying' issue. I'm hopeful that the void left by Hamas is filled with people who are absolutely sick of this shit show and show a real willingness to negotiate. The Israelis, in return, could elect leaders who, likewise, have a real willingness to negotiate a mutually beneficial existence.

Wasn't the Northern Ireland peace movement led by two women? Wouldn't it be wonderful if two peace movements were created in each country and led by women? Women tend to think different to men!

 

[The blue phantom]

The same delusion exists on the other side. Do people honestly think that Israel is going to just dissolve and all will be well? The west is never going to do that, the only way it could be achieved is through Iran dropping a nuclear bomb, not going to happen either.

The real solution is the middle road but you don't get a middle road with extremists on either side. Extremism on one side unfortunately breeds extremism on the other, that's the problem.

The two must coexist somehow but neither currently want that. Indeed Israel is the greatest contributor to the problem but some sort of solution has to be found or else ongoing war is the only option.

One of, if not the biggest solution is for Israel to have none of the land it's illegally took. There's no middle of the road regarding this main issue. The Palestinians shouldn't give an inch of this land to Israel. Its something yourself and others simply can't or won't discuss.

The weird thing about all this is Three active posters on this thread defending Israel are lambasting Russia for encroaching and stealing Ukrainian land.

I mean you just have to fuckin Laugh.

 

[inbetween]

One of, if not the biggest solution is for Israel to have none of the land it's illegally took. There's no middle of the road regarding this main issue. The Palestinians shouldn't give an inch of this land to Israel. Its something yourself and others simply can't or won't discuss.

The weird thing about all this is Three active posters on this thread defending Israel are lambasting Russia for encroaching and stealing Ukrainian land.

I mean you just have to fuckin Laugh.

Of course they have to give back the land, that isn't in dispute and no-one is saying that or at least I'm not. Israel needs to go back to the recognised borders. I don't know how that can be achieved given the status of the Israeli government but yes they must do.

This isn't what the Palestinians want though and certainly not Hamas. That's the vacuum of the debate, we know how something potentially can be achieved but how on earth do you get there given neither wants it?

The 'resistance' supporters certainly aren't in favour of that, they're arguing that Israel should not exist at all.

 

[west didsblue]

One of, if not the biggest solution is for Israel to have none of the land it's illegally took. There's no middle of the road regarding this main issue. The Palestinians shouldn't give an inch of this land to Israel. Its something yourself and others simply can't or won't discuss.

The weird thing about all this is Three active posters on this thread defending Israel are lambasting Russia for encroaching and stealing Ukrainian land.

I mean you just have to fuckin Laugh.

The difference is that Ukraine has borders that are internationally recognised. The borders of Israel and Palestine have never been agreed. In the past, Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt to enable the peace deal in the late 70s. Israel also withdrew to the internationally recognised border in south Lebanon in the 90s. At present the only internationally recognised border that it hasn’t withdrawn to is in the north east with Syria but a peace deal with Assad that would facilitate the return of the Golan Heights is not a realistic prospect at the moment.

As for Palestine, a return to post 1967 borders with land swaps covering the biggest settlements was the deal that nearly happened 25 years ago and should be the only realistic choice. Unfortunately the settler movement in Israel holds far too much sway with the Israeli government and the actions of Hamas have made it extremely difficult for compromises to be made. Both sides need to get rid of their extremist elements. I said years ago that Netanyahu was the biggest obstacle to peace and the murderous actions of Hamas on 7/10 have given him the excuse to be hardline and keep himself in power with the support of the settler leaders.

 

[cucumberman]

I honestly do not know what to reply. Many seem to hate each other, it's a war, someone will end up winning and someone will end up losing. A lot of people who could not care less whether the land is called Israel or Palestine will/have died. A lot of people who do care whether the land is called Israel/Palestine will/have died. I'm suggesting we try something a bit different to death.

Palestine circa 1896.
Almost 110 years ago.

Did the Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and other religions be more volatile on death and kills before Zionism than after Zionism (1910s)?



Sporadic tribal skirmishes yes, but hardly ever compared to the time of Revisionist Zionism, Judenrate, Betar, and the Irgun, Palmach, Lehi and Haganah who all had one common cause - Promised Land exclusive to Revisionist Judaism

 

[The Fat el Hombre]

James O'Brien calling out those branding people 'anti semitic' when people are actually just calling out the monstrous genocide and ethnic cleansing by israel:

"Tens of thousands of people are dead, hospitals are being bombed, schools are being attacked, people are being set on fire, and a third of the governing party is planning on spending this weekend calling for the cleansed territory to be occupied illegally by Israeli, and you think there's something anti-semitic about describing the truth; the facts".



Israeli's are already bragging about removing Palestinians permanently from Jabalia.

Ethnic cleansing:



Looks like it wasn't about any hostages at all (well knock me down with a feather). Nevermind, only 40000+ people been slaughtered so far.

Shame