Middle East Conflict

[The Future’s Blue!]

Trump can spout whatever nonsense he likes. These people will not be broken.



Ben Gvir knows it.

So, as they’ve already destroyed all the infrastructure, that can only mean the people of Gaza.

When somebody tells you they’re genocidal, believe them.

 

[Postman Pep]

Mad ****. It’s pretty much as far from what compete surrender looks like as possible.

What it is then? Given that their stated objectives were to destroy Hamas and rescue the hostages I'd describe it as an abject failure.
Unless you see killing more hostages than they rescued, slaughtering tens of thousands of people, displacing tens of thousands more and destroying vast amounts of infrastructure as some sort of victory?
There are no winners here.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

What it is then? Given that their stated objectives were to destroy Hamas and rescue the hostages I'd describe it as an abject failure.
Unless you see killing more hostages than they rescued, slaughtering tens of thousands of people, displacing tens of thousands more and destroying vast amounts of infrastructure as some sort of victory?
There are no winners here.

Agree with your last sentence 100% but to describe Israel’s actions as ‘complete surrender’ is patently absurd. I’m not sure what I’d describe it as, but certainly not that.

The destruction of Hamas was always an intellectually dishonest and wholly unrealistic aspiration so it shouldn’t be cited as a yardstick for any outcome.

If your point is that Israel’s actions have benefited no party, including ultimately themselves, then I’d agree, but by any objective measure they have not surrendered, completely or otherwise.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Agree with your last sentence 100% but to describe Israel’s actions as ‘complete surrender’ is patently absurd. I’m not sure what I’d describe it as, but certainly not that.

The destruction of Hamas was always an intellectually dishonest and wholly unrealistic aspiration so it shouldn’t be cited as a yardstick for any outcome.

If your point is that Israel’s actions have benefited no party, including ultimately themselves, then I’d agree, but by any objective measure they have not surrendered, completely or otherwise.

Going back to the start of this and the praise being heaped on Trump by some in here for the ceasefire, which I absolutely welcomed regardless of who took credit for it.
I stated my doubts and fears then and I see no reason to be over optimistic since.
It’s wonderful that hostages on both sides can be reunited with what’s left of their families, but I fear there is worse to come. I feel that Gaza will be purged and the West Bank will be next for cleansing in one form or another.

All with Trumps approval.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Going back to the start of this and the praise being heaped on Trump by some in here for the ceasefire, which I absolutely welcomed regardless of who took credit for it.
I stated my doubts and fears then and I see no reason to be over optimistic since.
It’s wonderful that hostages on both sides can be reunited with what’s left of their families, but I fear there is worse to come. I feel that Gaza will be purged and the West Bank will be next for cleansing in one form or another.

All with Trumps approval.

The notion that Trump’s election was ever going to be beneficial in any way to the Palestinian people or their cause was always preposterous.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

So, as they’ve already destroyed all the infrastructure, that can only mean the people of Gaza.

When somebody tells you they’re genocidal, believe them.

To use the term 'genocidal' to describe Gaza, on Holocaust Memorial Day, is insensitive in the extreme.

I'm certainly not condoning many of the Israeli actions in Gaza but they had a right to take action, the people they were attacking used their civilians as a human shield, and there was never any intention to systematically exterminate the population of Gaza. If there had been, they could certainly have done it.

The death toll was too high but it included combatants, who made up probably 40% of the total, and there are documented instances of some of those being 'reclassified' as women and children.

Given some of the unverifiable videos and blatant propaganda constantly posted by some of the terrorist sympathisers on here, here's a different view from a respected
political group:

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/publications/questionable-counting/

 

[The blue phantom]

I always have to laugh when the same faces pop in and try and justify the Genocide, downplay the amount of Murdered Palestinians. "Yeh but nearly half were Hamas" "Not as many women and children have been slaughtered as you think" they always try and cleverly word it. Then it always finishes with the good old Nugget of "Terriost sympathisers on here"

Fuckin pathetic. They literally can't come to terms with what their beloved Israel is doing. The powers that be are trying to erase a nation. Wether by Murder/Genocide, Ethnic cleansing or any other means to achieve their goal.

These bastards will get justice one day hopefully when they are all held accountable.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I always have to laugh when the same faces pop in and try and justify the Genocide, downplay the amount of Murdered Palestinians. "Yeh but nearly half were Hamas" "Not as many women and children have been slaughtered as you think" they always try and cleverly word it. Then it always finishes with the good old Nugget of "Terriost sympathisers on here"

Fuckin pathetic. They literally can't come to terms with what their beloved Israel is doing. The powers that be are trying to erase a nation. Wether by Murder/Genocide, Ethnic cleansing or any other means to achieve their goal.

These bastards will get justice one day hopefully when they are all held accountable.

Funnily enough I have to laugh when the usual suspects who seem to inhabit this thread night and day, trot out the same old cliched anti-Israeli diatribes. I bet you've not even read that document, and have no intention of doing so as it doesn't fit your narrative. However you have no issue fully believing any Hamas-produced propaganda.

However the difference between people like me, @west didsblue, @gordondaviesmoustache and others, and people like you, is that we can see that it's not the black-and-white scenario you try to portray, that neither side is in the right and it would be far better if both could accept each others' existence and live in peace. I've posted about my hatred of Netanyahu and his right-wing extremist clique numerous times. Have you ever unconditionally condemned Hamas?

Your group can't accept shades of grey however. It's all Israel's fault in your eyes, you can't bring yourselves to condemn terrorists and the only thing that will satisfy some of you is when Israel ceases to exist. Which is fucking ironic on HMD, which is the main reason Israel does exist.

 

[The blue phantom]

Funnily enough I have to laugh when the usual suspects who seem to inhabit this thread night and day, trot out the same old cliched anti-Israeli diatribes. I bet you've not even read that document, and have no intention of doing so as it doesn't fit your narrative. However you have no issue fully believing any Hamas-produced propaganda.

However the difference between people like me, @west didsblue, @gordondaviesmoustache and others, and people like you, is that we can see that it's not the black-and-white scenario you try to portray, that neither side is in the right and it would be far better if both could accept each others' existence and live in peace. I've posted about my hatred of Netanyahu and his right-wing extremist clique numerous times. Have you ever unconditionally condemned Hamas?

Your group can't accept shades of grey however. It's all Israel's fault in your eyes, you can't bring yourselves to condemn terrorists and the only thing that will satisfy some of you is when Israel ceases to exist. Which is fucking ironic on HMD, which is the main reason Israel does exist.

I've probably condemned Hamas more than you on this thread. Again yesterday I did funnily enough in a post to GDM.

Let me ask you a question

Do you think Israel has committed any War Crimes?

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I've probably condemned Hamas more than you on this thread. Again yesterday I did funnily enough in a post to GDM.

Let me ask you a question

Do you think Israel has committed any War Crimes?

I'm not a lawyer who specialises in these things but I imagine they have. I don't have a problem with admitting that.

Now let me throw one back at you. Given the position of Hamas and its Iranian backers, who want to destroy the State of Israel. Given that they launched an attack and murdered 1700 people, the majority of whom were Israelis and Jews, do you think Hamas is guilty of genocide?

 

[The blue phantom]

I'm not a lawyer who specialises in these things but I imagine they have. I don't have a problem with admitting that.

Now let me throw one back at you. Given the position of Hamas and its Iranian backers, who want to destroy the State of Israel. Given that they launched an attack and murdered 1700 people, the majority of whom were Israelis and Jews, do you think Hamas is guilty of genocide?

Of course they are. They murdered innocent civilians, lots of them. I'm sure they'd want even more Israelis wiped off the planet too.

 

[Postman Pep]

Agree with your last sentence 100% but to describe Israel’s actions as ‘complete surrender’ is patently absurd. I’m not sure what I’d describe it as, but certainly not that.

The destruction of Hamas was always an intellectually dishonest and wholly unrealistic aspiration so it shouldn’t be cited as a yardstick for any outcome.

If your point is that Israel’s actions have benefited no party, including ultimately themselves, then I’d agree, but by any objective measure they have not surrendered, completely or otherwise.

To be clear I wouldn't describe it as that either but that doesn't change the fact that he and his supporters do see it in those terms.

The "he knows" part of my post was alluding to the significance of tens of thousands of people returning to the north. The third, unstated but barely concealed objective, was the complete depopulation north of the Netzarim corridor. The so called generals plan. For now at least that dream is over.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Funnily enough I have to laugh when the usual suspects who seem to inhabit this thread night and day, trot out the same old cliched anti-Israeli diatribes. I bet you've not even read that document, and have no intention of doing so as it doesn't fit your narrative. However you have no issue fully believing any Hamas-produced propaganda.

However the difference between people like me, @west didsblue, @gordondaviesmoustache and others, and people like you, is that we can see that it's not the black-and-white scenario you try to portray, that neither side is in the right and it would be far better if both could accept each others' existence and live in peace. I've posted about my hatred of Netanyahu and his right-wing extremist clique numerous times. Have you ever unconditionally condemned Hamas?

Your group can't accept shades of grey however. It's all Israel's fault in your eyes, you can't bring yourselves to condemn terrorists and the only thing that will satisfy some of you is when Israel ceases to exist. Which is fucking ironic on HMD, which is the main reason Israel does exist.

Isn't the true message of holocaust memorial day never again for everyone not never again for one set of people?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I'm not a lawyer who specialises in these things but I imagine they have. I don't have a problem with admitting that.

Now let me throw one back at you. Given the position of Hamas and its Iranian backers, who want to destroy the State of Israel. Given that they launched an attack and murdered 1700 people, the majority of whom were Israelis and Jews, do you think Hamas is guilty of genocide?

Absolutely. And like you say, you have condemned Netanyahu.
I’ve thought all along that this situation was nothing more than the opportunity he needed to stay in power and initiate his agenda.

I’m no expert either. None of us are.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Absolutely. And like you say, you have condemned Netanyahu.
I’ve thought all along that this situation was nothing more than the opportunity he needed to stay in power and initiate his agenda.

I’m no expert either. None of us are.

I agree. Any Israeli leader would have had to respond robustly to the events of 7th October as the domestic political agenda would have demanded it. But I'm in no doubt that he cynically saw it as a lifeline. I've also said that he and Hamas almost needed each other to bolster each other's intransigence.

My nephew has lived in Tel Aviv for a number of years and his view is probably shared by many Israelis, which is that they have no time for Netanyahu but, for the moment, they will support the government. I suspect there's many in Gaza who have a similar outlook regarding Hamas.

 

[Gobshiight]

Given some of the unverifiable videos and blatant propaganda constantly posted by some of the terrorist sympathisers on here, here's a different view from a respected
political group:

Fucking hell, reading into the Henry Jackson group for 5 minutes makes this statement laughable

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Fucking hell, reading into the Henry Jackson group for 5 minutes makes this statement laughable

It's one of those idiotically named thinktanks that have grown far from the principles of the person they are named after.

Does anyone think a thinktank now led by Brandon Lewis cares about Labour unions or civil rights?

As for the bias that prompted the selection of such a ridiculous piece of propaganda It's all down to.

#zionismmeansmore

#Jewishlivesmattermore

 

[Craig]

I always have to laugh when the same faces pop in and try and justify the Genocide, downplay the amount of Murdered Palestinians. "Yeh but nearly half were Hamas" "Not as many women and children have been slaughtered as you think" they always try and cleverly word it. Then it always finishes with the good old Nugget of "Terriost sympathisers on here"

Fuckin pathetic. They literally can't come to terms with what their beloved Israel is doing. The powers that be are trying to erase a nation. Wether by Murder/Genocide, Ethnic cleansing or any other means to achieve their goal.

These bastards will get justice one day hopefully when they are all held accountable.

Spot on. Especially when you see nonsense like to use the term genocidal on holocaust memorial day is disrespectful in the extreme. No it isn’t because it’s exactly what it is. Fucking hypocrites.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Spot on. Especially when you see nonsense like to use the term genocidal on holocaust memorial day is disrespectful in the extreme. No it isn’t because it’s exactly what it is. Fucking hypocrites.

It's fucking ghoulish. But not surprising.

The other point of HMD is remembering that there isn't a moral or evolutionary value disparity between ethnic groups.

This point seems lost.

 

[KPXBLN]

To use the term 'genocidal' to describe Gaza, on Holocaust Memorial Day, is insensitive in the extreme.

I'm certainly not condoning many of the Israeli actions in Gaza but they had a right to take action, the people they were attacking used their civilians as a human shield, and there was never any intention to systematically exterminate the population of Gaza. If there had been, they could certainly have done it.

The death toll was too high but it included combatants, who made up probably 40% of the total, and there are documented instances of some of those being 'reclassified' as women and children.

Given some of the unverifiable videos and blatant propaganda constantly posted by some of the terrorist sympathisers on here, here's a different view from a respected
political group:

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/publications/questionable-counting/

Leaving aside whether the HJS is "respected" (given its association with Douglas Murray, Raheem Kassam, etc, I don't agree), the authors of that report don't appear to have much relevant expertise, and their methodology is dubious. For example they list a couple of examples out of tens of thousands of dead listed with the wrong age or gender, and then somehow infer that there are "thousands" of dead wrongly classified in the same way.

Here's a study from the Lancet from just a couple of weeks ago that finds, with a much more transparent and rigorous methodology, that the statistics from the health ministry are likely an undercount of the true number of victims. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)02678-3/fulltext