Nelson Mandela RIP

[dick slexia]

Uncalled for Richard
Even freedom fighting terrorists responsible for untold misery maimings death and wanton destruction on
the countries populace should be afforded just a little respect in their passing.
He did a lot of good work later on and lest we forget that.

Mandela and the spear of the people or MK learned from Arafat how to make people tow the line and forced them all to conform to their warped ideals.
Necklacing which was for the uninitiated the burning alive by placing soaking tyres in petrol over the condemns necks and burning families in their homes ,operating protection rackets among black South African businessmen and torturing and butchering of dissidents at ANC gilags in Angola, something Mandela did indeed admit occurred.
Champion of freedom and democracy, the hero of oppressed everywhere but also as a matter of interst considered
dictatorships like cuba and libya to be the beacons of friedom and justice and also operated secret links between between his National Congress and the IRA. Oh yes !
Responsible for signing off on the Church Street bombing in Pretoria buchering loads od innoncents and wounding hundreds, mostly families at a town centre shopping street .
The commander in cheif of that operation being a chap called Ismal, a sympathizing PLO terrorist.
I bet we can all think of other " freedom fighters " that pulled of shitty stunts like that much closer to home on our own shopping streets and i would be ashamed to applaud them in a public forum like a sports event.
In the very beginning targets were initialy buildings and key locations but years later the MK wing was killing civilians without thoughts or hindrance with grenades being lobbed into cafes and trip-wired limpets bein planted randomly and Mandela did not object. Mandella never objected !
Yes the man did good things and yes in his later years he did a lot of good work in uniting the African people and preaching peace and harmony to all.
Not many I would wager would condone apartheid a shitty regime that thankfully has now gone
But goodness me,was he a good man ?
I say no anything but,
But RIP anyway.

The Mandella roll of honour
Drum roll if you please..

Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3 June, 1988


Round of applause ?
We should all strive as human beings to see not only the good in people but also the bad
Sorry that's the wrong way round

Any way do RIP Nelson

If you don't agree and we all have differing opinions then explain nicely and also concisely with attempting to score cellartite points why you think he is so deserved of this tremendous accolade and outpouring of grief from human kind.

Im not sure what you are asking me to agree or disagree with, and Im also uneasy with this massive outpouring of grief and mawkishness. The BBC seem to milk it for all its worth. Condolences to his friends and family as to anyone that suffers a bereavement but I believe the old saying that one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.
What I posted earlier was just a bit of nonsense somebody sent to me which I thought might lighten things up a bit, and to counterbalance that heres another one:
The Man United fans were congratulated today for the impeccably observed 90 minutes silence for Nelson Mandela during the match against Newcastle on Saturday

 

[west didsblue]

The Mandella roll of honour
Drum roll if you please..

Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3

And he managed to do all that whilst locked in a cell on Robben Island with no contact with the outside world. Incredible.

 

[TCIB]

I've dodged most of the tributes so far apart from the clapping tribute at football.

Same here Daz.

I have noticed one glaring double standard here by some though.

That is trying to explain away his darker moments with the reasoning he was persecuted in his own country.

Now the soldier A thread had members stating we should not stoop to their level but in this instance condoning it.
This shows to me in any case those members have personal ideals they purport under the guise of a general moral decency.

My opinion is he was a man who had bad things done to him and did bad things to others.
No more a saint than a sinner our religious members may say.
As others have stated you take the good and bad and seemingly the bad is being glossed over.

I have nothing more to add to this thread.

 

[mcmanus]

I've dodged most of the tributes so far apart from the clapping tribute at football.

Same here Daz.

I have noticed one glaring double standard here by some though.

That is trying to explain away his darker moments with the reasoning he was persecuted in his own country.

Now the soldier A thread had members stating we should not stoop to their level but in this instance condoning it.
This shows to me in any case those members have personal ideals they purport under the guise of a general moral decency.

My opinion is he was a man who had bad things done to him and did bad things to others.
No more a saint than a sinner our religious members may say.
As others have stated you take the good and bad and seemingly the bad is being glossed over.

I have nothing more to add to this thread.

Fucking hell 'he had bad things done to him'. Oh please.

He was classed as a second class citizen who was denied a proper education, job, money, health, human rights... fuck's sake he couldn't piss in the same toilet as his oppressors.

Bad things? No wonder he took to extreme measures.

 

[TCIB]

I've dodged most of the tributes so far apart from the clapping tribute at football.

Same here Daz.

I have noticed one glaring double standard here by some though.

That is trying to explain away his darker moments with the reasoning he was persecuted in his own country.

Now the soldier A thread had members stating we should not stoop to their level but in this instance condoning it.
This shows to me in any case those members have personal ideals they purport under the guise of a general moral decency.

My opinion is he was a man who had bad things done to him and did bad things to others.
No more a saint than a sinner our religious members may say.
As others have stated you take the good and bad and seemingly the bad is being glossed over.

I have nothing more to add to this thread.

Fucking hell 'he had bad things done to him'. Oh please.

He was classed as a second class citizen who was denied a proper education, job, money, health, human rights... fuck's sake he couldn't piss in the same toilet as his oppressors.

Bad things? No wonder he took to extreme measures.

So some poor innocent **** out shopping deserves to get their limbs blown of in retribution ?

I can see how someone would go postal but then you pay the price of being no better than them.

 

[west didsblue]

He personally did not commit the acts in person .
Leaders seldom dirty their hands
He did however orchestrate it

Are you openly arguing the case that he was not the leader of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC.
Are you saying that you do not believe him to be responsible for the murder of innocents

Because If Mandella was alive he would disagree immensely with you.

He was quoted on oath as saying and I quote to you from archives here.
At trial, he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station.
Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

The Mandella roll of honour
Drum roll if you please..

Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3

And he managed to do all that whilst locked in a cell on Robben Island with no contact with the outside world. Incredible.

As I'm sure you are aware his trial was 20 years before the atrocities you listed and as you said yourself, the targets of the MK in the early years were infrastructure and government buildings. That was when Mandela was in charge. Although the later atrocities were done in his name, I've seen no evidence that he orchestrated them or condoned them. Perhaps you can point to a source.

 

[chesterbells]

He personally did not commit the acts in person .
Leaders seldom dirty their hands
He did however orchestrate it

Are you openly arguing the case that he was not the leader of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC.
Are you saying that you do not believe him to be responsible for the murder of innocents

Because If Mandella was alive he would disagree immensely with you.

He was quoted on oath as saying and I quote to you from archives here.
At trial, he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station.
Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

And he managed to do all that whilst locked in a cell on Robben Island with no contact with the outside world. Incredible.

As I'm sure you are aware his trial was 20 years before the atrocities you listed and as you said yourself, the targets of the MK in the early years were infrastructure and government buildings. That was when Mandela was in charge. Although the later atrocities were done in his name, I've seen no evidence that he orchestrated them or condoned them. Perhaps you can point to a source.

Yes, I'd like to read an answer to that question too

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

Same here Daz.

I have noticed one glaring double standard here by some though.

That is trying to explain away his darker moments with the reasoning he was persecuted in his own country.

Now the soldier A thread had members stating we should not stoop to their level but in this instance condoning it.
This shows to me in any case those members have personal ideals they purport under the guise of a general moral decency.

My opinion is he was a man who had bad things done to him and did bad things to others.
No more a saint than a sinner our religious members may say.
As others have stated you take the good and bad and seemingly the bad is being glossed over.

I have nothing more to add to this thread.

Fucking hell 'he had bad things done to him'. Oh please.

He was classed as a second class citizen who was denied a proper education, job, money, health, human rights... fuck's sake he couldn't piss in the same toilet as his oppressors.

Bad things? No wonder he took to extreme measures.

So some poor innocent **** out shopping deserves to get their limbs blown of in retribution ?

I can see how someone would go postal but then you pay the price of being no better than them.

I have been watching a couple of documentaries on Mandela over the last couple of days, and one mentioned Winnie Mandela spending 18 months in solitary confinement, beginning 1969, naked the whole time, with open sores and wounds which the ants and various insects would feed on - she was certainly personally responsible for many terrible acts - but imagine your mindset after that experience - how many of us would not emerge from that quite mad with desire for revenge? She is not universally loved for her crimes, there is no glossing over for her, and maybe if Nelson had died in prison, she would have taken South Africa into a period of violence and retribution the like we all feared?

Similarly Nelson Mandela saw and lived through terrible atrocities visited on his people, and himself, this could not be compared to soldier A's experiences surely?

The legacy of Mandela is one of reconciliation, of equality - he did not leave a bloodbath in his wake like Zimbabwe despite all that had happened to him and his family and friends, and for that he is to be recognised in history.

 

[TCIB]

He personally did not commit the acts in person .
Leaders seldom dirty their hands
He did however orchestrate it

Are you openly arguing the case that he was not the leader of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC.
Are you saying that you do not believe him to be responsible for the murder of innocents

Because If Mandella was alive he would disagree immensely with you.

He was quoted on oath as saying and I quote to you from archives here.
At trial, he pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station.
Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.

And he managed to do all that whilst locked in a cell on Robben Island with no contact with the outside world. Incredible.

As I'm sure you are aware his trial was 20 years before the atrocities you listed and as you said yourself, the targets of the MK in the early years were infrastructure and government buildings. That was when Mandela was in charge. Although the later atrocities were done in his name, I've seen no evidence that he orchestrated them or condoned them. Perhaps you can point to a source.

He stood under the banner however you cut the cloth bud.
Whatever his reasons the idea he denounced all acts of violent aggression on innocent peoples is one i find hard to swallow.
Not that you say that but you seem to imply this.
You are judged by the company you keep in society and the very nature of his organizations actions were extremely violent and aggressive.

I would say the burden of proof is on those holding your position to show he indeed had nothing to do with incidents involving innocent casualties.

 

[TCIB]

Fucking hell 'he had bad things done to him'. Oh please.

He was classed as a second class citizen who was denied a proper education, job, money, health, human rights... fuck's sake he couldn't piss in the same toilet as his oppressors.

Bad things? No wonder he took to extreme measures.

So some poor innocent **** out shopping deserves to get their limbs blown of in retribution ?

I can see how someone would go postal but then you pay the price of being no better than them.

I have been watching a couple of documentaries on Mandela over the last couple of days, and one mentioned Winnie Mandela spending 18 months in solitary confinement, beginning 1969, naked the whole time, with open sores and wounds which the ants and various insects would feed on - she was certainly personally responsible for many terrible acts - but imagine your mindset after that experience - how many of us would not emerge from that quite mad with desire for revenge? She is not universally loved for her crimes, there is no glossing over for her, and maybe if Nelson had died in prison, she would have taken South Africa into a period of violence and retribution the like we all feared?

Similarly Nelson Mandela saw and lived through terrible atrocities visited on his people, and himself, this could not be compared to soldier A's experiences surely?

The legacy of Mandela is one of reconciliation, of equality - he did not leave a bloodbath in his wake like Zimbabwe despite all that had happened to him and his family and friends, and for that he is to be recognised in history.

I do Jim, i do get how someone would go batshit crazy and angry beyond words.
Whatever his reasons though he was involved in equally nasty business.
I do not blame or condone his actions, they are the result of his circumstances to which i can not even begin to empithise with due to the extreme nature of them.

I just feel it should be noted he was no angel, if society drove him to that i can indeed see how it would happen though.
We are not perfect and perhaps never will be, human nature is a strange thing and one laws and standards of society will never control.