Nelson Mandela RIP

[west didsblue]

I'm not saying Mandela was or was not complicit in the acts of the MK in the 70s and 80s. I'm just saying I've seen no evidence either way. I find it difficult to believe he had any significant involvement due to his isolation.

Referencing his trial in1964 doesn't prove anything other than he was guilty of the crime that he was on trial for and for which he admitted his guilt which was sabotage. As far as I am aware he has never been charged with any other crimes, certainly not murder.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

So some poor innocent **** out shopping deserves to get their limbs blown of in retribution ?

I can see how someone would go postal but then you pay the price of being no better than them.

I have been watching a couple of documentaries on Mandela over the last couple of days, and one mentioned Winnie Mandela spending 18 months in solitary confinement, beginning 1969, naked the whole time, with open sores and wounds which the ants and various insects would feed on - she was certainly personally responsible for many terrible acts - but imagine your mindset after that experience - how many of us would not emerge from that quite mad with desire for revenge? She is not universally loved for her crimes, there is no glossing over for her, and maybe if Nelson had died in prison, she would have taken South Africa into a period of violence and retribution the like we all feared?

Similarly Nelson Mandela saw and lived through terrible atrocities visited on his people, and himself, this could not be compared to soldier A's experiences surely?

The legacy of Mandela is one of reconciliation, of equality - he did not leave a bloodbath in his wake like Zimbabwe despite all that had happened to him and his family and friends, and for that he is to be recognised in history.

I do Jim, i do get how someone would go batshit crazy and angry beyond words.
Whatever his reasons though he was involved in equally nasty business.
I do not blame or condone his actions, they are the result of his circumstances to which i can not even begin to empithise with due to the extreme nature of them.

I just feel it should be noted he was no angel, if society drove him to that i can indeed see how it would happen though.
We are not perfect and perhaps never will be, human nature is a strange thing and one laws and standards of society will never control.

I think what elevates him from us ordinary mortals, is that he came out of 27 years in nick, and managed to steer the whole country into the peaceful, functioning democracy it is today, without losing his rag once - I think he was the real deal - personally I would have killed them all, and let God sort them out had that been my family history, had they done that to my wife, to my people (disclaimer - of course I don't know for sure, but how angry and bitter would it send you?).

One thing in his favour, sort of, is he came out at 71 years of age, same as my dad now, well retired, so perhaps age had burnt out his fires of retribution, and the decades of imprisonment forged his outlook to become the great healer he unquestionably became.

What a set of improbable scenarios, people, events all led to the downfall of apartheid, in a manner which was about as smooth as could be hoped for - Mandela is the human embodiment of the time, and the hopes of a world striving to shake off it's grimy past - just enjoy these few days as a reminder of how people can triumph over our baser instincts for the good of all.

 

[mcmanus]

I have been watching a couple of documentaries on Mandela over the last couple of days, and one mentioned Winnie Mandela spending 18 months in solitary confinement, beginning 1969, naked the whole time, with open sores and wounds which the ants and various insects would feed on - she was certainly personally responsible for many terrible acts - but imagine your mindset after that experience - how many of us would not emerge from that quite mad with desire for revenge? She is not universally loved for her crimes, there is no glossing over for her, and maybe if Nelson had died in prison, she would have taken South Africa into a period of violence and retribution the like we all feared?

Similarly Nelson Mandela saw and lived through terrible atrocities visited on his people, and himself, this could not be compared to soldier A's experiences surely?

The legacy of Mandela is one of reconciliation, of equality - he did not leave a bloodbath in his wake like Zimbabwe despite all that had happened to him and his family and friends, and for that he is to be recognised in history.

I do Jim, i do get how someone would go batshit crazy and angry beyond words.
Whatever his reasons though he was involved in equally nasty business.
I do not blame or condone his actions, they are the result of his circumstances to which i can not even begin to empithise with due to the extreme nature of them.

I just feel it should be noted he was no angel, if society drove him to that i can indeed see how it would happen though.
We are not perfect and perhaps never will be, human nature is a strange thing and one laws and standards of society will never control.

I think what elevates him from us ordinary mortals, is that he came out of 27 years in nick, and managed to steer the whole country into the peaceful, functioning democracy it is today, without losing his rag once - I think he was the real deal - personally I would have killed them all, and let God sort them out had that been my family history, had they done that to my wife, to my people (disclaimer - of course I don't know for sure, but how angry and bitter would it send you?).

One thing in his favour, sort of, is he came out at 71 years of age, same as my dad now, well retired, so perhaps age had burnt out his fires of retribution, and the decades of imprisonment forged his outlook to become the great healer he unquestionably became.

What a set of improbable scenarios, people, events all led to the downfall of apartheid, in a manner which was about as smooth as could be hoped for - Mandela is the human embodiment of the time, and the hopes of a world striving to shake off it's grimy past - just enjoy these few days as a reminder of how people can triumph over our baser instincts for the good of all.

Cheers Jimi, great well balanced and thought out post.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

With the exception of James Kantor, who was innocent of all charges, Mandela and the accused admitted sabotage but denied that they had ever agreed to initiate guerilla war against the government. They used the trial to highlight their political cause. At the opening of the defence's proceedings Mandela gave a four hour long speech.
Also guilty by association.
He was the leader of the terrorist wing and never once condemned its vile attrocities.
was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe the terrorist wing of the ANC South African Communist Party.
At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children were killed.

Are Amnisty imternational delutional too ?

I ask that as not to be flippant or rude but as a matter of interest
If you do not wish to believe he associated and orchestrated himself with death and killings and only mere bombings then that is your opinion which has a validity all in itself my friend and I do respect it.
Who is to say who is right or wrong.
Just that we have a different opinion and that is all.

I'm not saying Mandela was or was not complicit in the acts of the MK in the 70s and 80s. I'm just saying I've seen no evidence either way. I find it difficult to believe he had any significant involvement due to his isolation.

Referencing his trial in1964 doesn't prove anything other than he was guilty of the crime that he was on trial for and for which he admitted his guilt which was sabotage. As far as I am aware he has never been charged with any other crimes, certainly not murder.

I'm not celebrating the loss of life caused by the ANC at the time, I'm celebrating the manner in which apartheid fell, and how Mandela conducted himself on release from his 27 year confinement.

Part of the reconciliations of the time was forgiveness for the past, so the whole country could move forwards - and perhaps for Mandela to apologise for the bombings, or to say he regretted any of it, would be rank hypocrisy for him - perhaps he thought that the violence was the only way to get justice for all - I don't know, but I know that he held a belief in his early years, and he had a vision in his later years which saved a hell of a lot of lives.

To continue to drag up the past is to ignore the manner in which South Africa has chosen to move forwards for the benefit of all the people, and Mandela was the loudest voice for peace and equality in the time of regime change - a minutes happy clapping is a fair remembrance for us I think.

 

[west didsblue]

With the exception of James Kantor, who was innocent of all charges, Mandela and the accused admitted sabotage but denied that they had ever agreed to initiate guerilla war against the government. They used the trial to highlight their political cause. At the opening of the defence's proceedings Mandela gave a four hour long speech.
Also guilty by association.
He was the leader of the terrorist wing and never once condemned its vile attrocities.
was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe the terrorist wing of the ANC South African Communist Party.
At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children were killed.

Are Amnisty imternational delutional too ?

I ask that as not to be flippant or rude but as a matter of interest
If you do not wish to believe he associated and orchestrated himself with death and killings and only mere bombings then that is your opinion which has a validity all in itself my friend and I do respect it.
Who is to say who is right or wrong.
Just that we have a different opinion and that is all.

I'm not saying Mandela was or was not complicit in the acts of the MK in the 70s and 80s. I'm just saying I've seen no evidence either way. I find it difficult to believe he had any significant involvement due to his isolation.

Referencing his trial in1964 doesn't prove anything other than he was guilty of the crime that he was on trial for and for which he admitted his guilt which was sabotage. As far as I am aware he has never been charged with any other crimes, certainly not murder.

I think you need to check your facts. The Jo'burg railway station bombing was carried out by John Frederick Harris, a member of ARM not MK. One elderly lady was killed for which Harris was hanged. I will ask again. Point me to some evidence that Mandela was involved in the MK terror campaign of the 70s and 80s. I have still not seen any evidence that Mandela was involved in killings and neither did the SA court in1964. If they had, he would have been hanged.

 

[TCIB]

If anything this does illustrate the fact force is the ultimate law.

I can understand Jim's position to celebrate the good bits but i can't do that.
The bad imo has to come with the good.

If anything for educational reasons it should be done.
If society is to advance we need the full stories on issues not the versions of the victor so to speak.

Either way i respect your position it is just one i personally do not hold and nor do i feel any malice towards it.

 

[lloydie]

Umkhonto we Sizwe (abbreviated as MK, translated as "Spear of the Nation") was the armed wing of the African National Congress (ANC), co-founded by Nelson Mandela in the wake of the Sharpeville Massacre. Its founding represented the conviction in the face of the massacre that the ANC could no longer limit itself to nonviolent protest; its mission was to fight against the South African government.[1] After warning the South African government in June 1961 of its intent to begin retaliatory acts if the government did not take steps toward constitutional reform and return of the freedoms denied under apartheid, MK launched its first guerrilla attacks against government installations on 16 December 1961. It was subsequently classified as a terrorist organisation by the South African government and the United States, and banned.

The Sharpeville massacre occurred on 21 March 1960, at the police station in the South African township of Sharpeville in the Transvaal (today part of Gauteng). After a day of demonstrations, a crowd of about 5,000 to 7,000 black protesters went to the police station. The South African police opened fire on the crowd, killing 69 people.

"At the beginning of June 1961, after a long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I, and some colleagues, came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be unrealistic and wrong for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force.
This conclusion was not easily arrived at. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle, and to form Umkhonto we Sizwe. We did so not because we desired such a course, but solely because the government had left us with no other choice. In the Manifesto of Umkhonto published on 16 December 1961, which is exhibit AD, we said:
'The time comes in the life of any nation when there remain only two choices – submit or fight. That time has now come to South Africa. We shall not submit and we have no choice but to hit back by all means in our power in defence of our people, our future, and our freedom.'
Firstly, we believed that as a result of Government policy, violence by the African people had become inevitable, and that unless responsible leadership was given to canalise and control the feelings of our people, there would be outbreaks of terrorism which would produce an intensity of bitterness and hostility between the various races of this country which is not produced even by war. Secondly, we felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or take over the Government. We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer with violence.

Seems reasonable to me.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

If anything this does illustrate the fact force is the ultimate law.

I can understand Jim's position to celebrate the good bits but i can't do that.
The bad imo has to come with the good.

If anything for educational reasons it should be done.
If society is to advance we need the full stories on issues not the versions of the victor so to speak.

Either way i respect your position it is just one i personally do not hold and nor do i feel any malice towards it.

I know exactly how you feel TCIB, I wish to all that is good that bad people in power could be persuaded peacefully to do the right things, but history tells us they more often than not only move when violence towards people and property comes their way. I'm not at all comfortable with that inconvenient fact as a lover of peace and security.
Historical treatments of any age/country should be factual and balanced for sure, and then we can begin to understand the way forwards, and never to make the same mistakes again.
I respect anyone who abhors violence, just as I respect anyone who turns from it where they can too - I don't think we're too far off are we? :)

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I have been watching a couple of documentaries on Mandela over the last couple of days, and one mentioned Winnie Mandela spending 18 months in solitary confinement, beginning 1969, naked the whole time, with open sores and wounds which the ants and various insects would feed on - she was certainly personally responsible for many terrible acts - but imagine your mindset after that experience - how many of us would not emerge from that quite mad with desire for revenge? She is not universally loved for her crimes, there is no glossing over for her, and maybe if Nelson had died in prison, she would have taken South Africa into a period of violence and retribution the like we all feared?

Similarly Nelson Mandela saw and lived through terrible atrocities visited on his people, and himself, this could not be compared to soldier A's experiences surely?

The legacy of Mandela is one of reconciliation, of equality - he did not leave a bloodbath in his wake like Zimbabwe despite all that had happened to him and his family and friends, and for that he is to be recognised in history.

I do Jim, i do get how someone would go batshit crazy and angry beyond words.
Whatever his reasons though he was involved in equally nasty business.
I do not blame or condone his actions, they are the result of his circumstances to which i can not even begin to empithise with due to the extreme nature of them.

I just feel it should be noted he was no angel, if society drove him to that i can indeed see how it would happen though.
We are not perfect and perhaps never will be, human nature is a strange thing and one laws and standards of society will never control.

I think what elevates him from us ordinary mortals, is that he came out of 27 years in nick, and managed to steer the whole country into the peaceful, functioning democracy it is today, without losing his rag once - I think he was the real deal - personally I would have killed them all, and let God sort them out had that been my family history, had they done that to my wife, to my people (disclaimer - of course I don't know for sure, but how angry and bitter would it send you?).

One thing in his favour, sort of, is he came out at 71 years of age, same as my dad now, well retired, so perhaps age had burnt out his fires of retribution, and the decades of imprisonment forged his outlook to become the great healer he unquestionably became.

What a set of improbable scenarios, people, events all led to the downfall of apartheid, in a manner which was about as smooth as could be hoped for - Mandela is the human embodiment of the time, and the hopes of a world striving to shake off it's grimy past - just enjoy these few days as a reminder of how people can triumph over our baser instincts for the good of all.

I wouldn't call it a peaceful and functioning democracy, I think many would dispute Mandela's legacy even if you solely focused on post-prison.

 

[BigJimLittleJim]

Apart from banishing apartheid in to the dark abyss that it belongs, unfortunately the country has not moved forward but is now sadly regressing
What would be hypocritical in saying sorry for the atrocities committed on both sided.
Remorseful yes but never hypocritical.
My names mandella and I did wrong,
But obviously not as much as my wife who was indeed an extremely vengeful lady.
Round of applause
As I clap Jim it will be for the souls of the victims of the ANC that were ruthlessly taken from there loved ones in such a cruel unfeeling manner.

With the exception of James Kantor, who was innocent of all charges, Mandela and the accused admitted sabotage but denied that they had ever agreed to initiate guerilla war against the government. They used the trial to highlight their political cause. At the opening of the defence's proceedings Mandela gave a four hour long speech.
Also guilty by association.
He was the leader of the terrorist wing and never once condemned its vile attrocities.
was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe the terrorist wing of the ANC South African Communist Party.
At his trial, he had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilising terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children were killed.

Are Amnisty imternational delutional too ?

I ask that as not to be flippant or rude but as a matter of interest
If you do not wish to believe he associated and orchestrated himself with death and killings and only mere bombings then that is your opinion which has a validity all in itself my friend and I do respect it.
Who is to say who is right or wrong.
Just that we have a different opinion and that is all.

I'm not celebrating the loss of life caused by the ANC at the time, I'm celebrating the manner in which apartheid fell, and how Mandela conducted himself on release from his 27 year confinement.

Part of the reconciliations of the time was forgiveness for the past, so the whole country could move forwards - and perhaps for Mandela to apologise for the bombings, or to say he regretted any of it, would be rank hypocrisy for him - perhaps he thought that the violence was the only way to get justice for all - I don't know, but I know that he held a belief in his early years, and he had a vision in his later years which saved a hell of a lot of lives.

To continue to drag up the past is to ignore the manner in which South Africa has chosen to move forwards for the benefit of all the people, and Mandela was the loudest voice for peace and equality in the time of regime change - a minutes happy clapping is a fair remembrance for us I think.

Clap for the souls who have survived the potential massacres that Mandela stopped- as for the current SA, well Mandela was president at the age of 72, then he retired after a year - he isn't to blame for it's current and possible ill since surely? He has been retired for what, twenty odd years now - that's like blaming Thatch for our country's misfortunes now..............oh.<br /><br />-- Tue Dec 10, 2013 1:45 am --<br /><br />

I do Jim, i do get how someone would go batshit crazy and angry beyond words.
Whatever his reasons though he was involved in equally nasty business.
I do not blame or condone his actions, they are the result of his circumstances to which i can not even begin to empithise with due to the extreme nature of them.

I just feel it should be noted he was no angel, if society drove him to that i can indeed see how it would happen though.
We are not perfect and perhaps never will be, human nature is a strange thing and one laws and standards of society will never control.

I think what elevates him from us ordinary mortals, is that he came out of 27 years in nick, and managed to steer the whole country into the peaceful, functioning democracy it is today, without losing his rag once - I think he was the real deal - personally I would have killed them all, and let God sort them out had that been my family history, had they done that to my wife, to my people (disclaimer - of course I don't know for sure, but how angry and bitter would it send you?).

One thing in his favour, sort of, is he came out at 71 years of age, same as my dad now, well retired, so perhaps age had burnt out his fires of retribution, and the decades of imprisonment forged his outlook to become the great healer he unquestionably became.

What a set of improbable scenarios, people, events all led to the downfall of apartheid, in a manner which was about as smooth as could be hoped for - Mandela is the human embodiment of the time, and the hopes of a world striving to shake off it's grimy past - just enjoy these few days as a reminder of how people can triumph over our baser instincts for the good of all.

I wouldn't call it a peaceful and functioning democracy, I think many would dispute Mandela's legacy even if you solely focused on post-prison.

Fair play, but it's no Zimbabwe, no Somalia compared - I have to bow out on this part of the debate due to not being informed enough, and to having to go to bed :)

For what it's worth, maybe Nelson would enjoy knowing we're all discussing his beloved homeland in such detail?