Nelson Mandela RIP

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

Aplogies for being so long but there are so many arguments for mandellas involvement in murder sabotage and espionage that I do not know where to start or end
I have already said that Mandella pleaded guilty at trial but however some interesting reading for u here pal.
Most of below is trawled from the net
You specifically mention one bombing or atricity and ask me to show his involvment.
I have tried and also gone on to show the man as no saint Nelson.
He was human and reacted with the ways only humans know best and that is by violence.
Mobilising OF terrorist bombing campaigns,
As the leader of the terrorist wing of ANC MK he is responsible for all atrocities as commander in chief.
He admitted at trial to involvment and 156 further offences inc the jo rail bombings

Inspired by Fidel Castro’s 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo.
Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group’s armed wing
Most early MK members were white communists; after hiding in communist Wolfie Kodesh’s flat in Berea, Mandela moved to the communist-owned Liliesleaf Farm in Rivonia, there joined by Raymond Mhlaba, Slovo and Bernstein, who put together the MK constitution.[
Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links at night, when civilians were not present.
Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism."
It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who oppose apartheid were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes.
In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors.
The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal. ANC and its terrorist arm, which was also controlled by the SACP, were trained in Soviet Russia and Red China, or in Communist “Frontline States” — Zambia, Angola, Mozambique, Tanzania, Zimbabwe Chinese, and other Communist instructors;
Is it so difficult for people to associate Nelson Mandela with the ANC? He is the ANC. He was president of the ANC and he was South Africa's first president representing the ANC.
The ANC came to power through violence most savage - necklacing their own people, killing policemen and councilors, and murdering so-called sell-outs in their thousands.
On June 3 1990, Nelson Mandela told a press conference after leaving a private clinic that "the only type of violence we accept is organized violence in the form of armed action which is properly controlled and where the targets have been carefully selected".
In response to Mandela's call for "targeted" violence, attacks against Black policemen (Mandela's targets) increased from 87 in January 1990 to 886 by 18/5/90. Deaths increased from 1 to 27 in the same period, while homes attacked increased from 45 to 270, and police vehicle attacks went up from 100 to 651.
A violence-free revolution? Mandela never foreswore violence - he refused when asked to do so as a condition of his release. Since the ANC took power and has systematically debased, looted and turned this country into a criminal's paradise, we haven't heard one word from this man whom the world has turned into a demi-God


The Crimes of Terrorist Nelson Mandela
The clever terrorist Nelson Mandela (most have never heard of, denied the opportunity by the treacherous liberal media) and understand why Amnesty International never accepted him as a political prisoner.
Even as the world finally woke up to how wicked Winnie Mandela is, we must face reality about how dangerous and deceitful Nelson Mandela has been.

The fact is that even Amnesty International refused to take on Nelson Mandela’s case because they asserted that he was no political prisoner but had committed numerous violent crimes and had had a fair trial and a reasonable sentence.
Nelson Mandela was the MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party.
He had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
South African President P.W. Botha had, on a number of occasions, offered Nelson Mandela freedom from prison, if he would only renounce terrorist violence. This Mandela refused to do. - Invictus Idolatry


* The full list of munitions and charges read as follows:

• One count under the South African Suppression of Communism Act No. 44 of 1950, charging that the accused committed acts calculated to further the achievement of the objective of communism;

• One count of contravening the South African Criminal Law Act (1953), which prohibits any person from soliciting or receiving any money or articles for the purpose of achieving organized defiance of laws and country; and

• Two counts of sabotage, committing or aiding or procuring the commission of the following acts:

1) The further recruitment of persons for instruction and training, both within and outside the Republic of South Africa, in:

(a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives—for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder);

(b) the art of warfare, including guerrilla warfare, and military training generally for the purpose in the aforesaid Republic;

(ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963);

(iii) Acts of guerrilla warfare in the aforesaid Republic;

(iv) Acts of assistance to military units of foreign countries when involving the aforesaid Republic;

(v) Acts of participation in a violent revolution in the aforesaid Republic, whereby the accused, injured, damaged, destroyed, rendered useless or unserviceable, put out of action, obstructed, with or endangered:


(a) the health or safety of the public;
(b) the maintenance of law and order;

(c) the supply and distribution of light, power or fuel;
(d) postal, telephone or telegraph installations;
(e) the free movement of traffic on land; and
(f) the property, movable or immovable, of other persons or of the state.

Source: The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964, Indictment.

I will go away and do that now pal

I think you need to check your facts. The Jo'burg railway station bombing was carried out by John Frederick Harris, a member of ARM not MK. One elderly lady was killed for which Harris was hanged. I will ask again. Point me to some evidence that Mandela was involved in the MK terror campaign of the 70s and 80s. I have still not seen any evidence that Mandela was involved in killings and neither did the SA court in1964. If they had, he would have been hanged.

Oh well done you have proven yourself an even bigger idiot.
There simply wasn't the option for non violence because the way the government had responded to previous attempt. Violence, terrorism and guerilla warfare are all legitimate methods when fighting against opressors and occupiers. States that are inherently illegitimate can not have a monoply on violence much less any real rule of law.

 

[Dakeb]

People saying there was no other option but violence.

The ANC targets were and still are black people. This was equally about the ANC gaining and keeping political power over their rivals once the NP was ousted.

It is not okay for one slave to murder another slave in order to defeat his master and take his place. This is what makes the terrorism unjustifiable. Google the name "Stompie".

South Africa today is not a free democracy. Sure, all people can vote but not for who they choose. They vote based on intimidation by the ANC.

It remains a world capital of crime and rape. This is the true legacy.

 

[Plaything of the gods]

Why blame Mandela for failing to turn around a dire political and social situation in 5 years from the age of 76?

Mandela's opponents - and apartheid's supporters - were businesses that made money from the conditions in South Africa. Those businesses shared values with some Western politicians and media owners. It is little wonder that a distorted picture of Nelson Mandela's South Africa - before, during and after his presidency - was and continues to be peddled when so many have been influenced by those pro-apartheid opinion leaders.

This from Wiki:

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela (Xhosa pronunciation: [xoˈliːɬaɬa manˈdeːla]) (18 July 1918 – 5 December 2013) was a South African anti-apartheid revolutionary, politician, and philanthropist who served as President of South Africa from 1994 to 1999. He was the first black South African to hold the office, and the first elected in a fully representative democratic election. His government focused on dismantling the legacy of apartheid through tackling institutionalised racism, poverty and inequality, and fostering racial reconciliation. Politically an African nationalist and democratic socialist, he served as President of the African National Congress (ANC) from 1991 to 1997. Internationally, Mandela was Secretary General of the Non-Aligned Movement from 1998 to 1999.

A Xhosa born to the Thembu royal family, Mandela attended the Fort Hare University and the University of Witwatersrand, where he studied law. Living in Johannesburg, he became involved in anti-colonial politics, joining the ANC and becoming a founding member of its Youth League. After the South African National Party came to power in 1948, he rose to prominence in the ANC's 1952 Defiance Campaign, was appointed superintendent of the organisation's Transvaal chapter and presided over the 1955 Congress of the People. Working as a lawyer, he was repeatedly arrested for seditious activities and, with the ANC leadership, was unsuccessfully prosecuted in the Treason Trial from 1956 to 1961. Although initially committed to non-violent protest, he co-founded the militant Umkhonto we Sizwe (MK) in 1961 in association with the South African Communist Party, leading a sabotage campaign against the apartheid government. In 1962 he was arrested, convicted of conspiracy to overthrow the state, and sentenced to life imprisonment in the Rivonia Trial.

Mandela served over 27 years in prison, initially on Robben Island, and later in Pollsmoor Prison and Victor Verster Prison. An international campaign lobbied for his release. He was released in 1990, during a time of escalating civil strife. Mandela joined negotiations with President F. W. de Klerk to abolish apartheid and establish multiracial elections in 1994, in which he led the ANC to victory and became South Africa's first black president. He published his autobiography in 1995. During his tenure in the Government of National Unity he invited several other political parties to join the cabinet. As agreed to during the negotiations to end apartheid in South Africa, he promulgated a new constitution. He also created the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to investigate past human rights abuses. While continuing the former government's liberal economic policy, his administration also introduced measures to encourage land reform, combat poverty, and expand healthcare services. Internationally, he acted as mediator between Libya and the United Kingdom in the Pan Am Flight 103 bombing trial, and oversaw military intervention in Lesotho. He declined to run for a second term, and was succeeded by his deputy, Thabo Mbeki. Mandela became an elder statesman, focusing on charitable work in combating poverty and HIV/AIDS through the Nelson Mandela Foundation.

Mandela was a controversial figure for much of his life. Denounced as a Marxist terrorist by critics,[1][2] he nevertheless gained international acclaim for his activism, having received more than 250 honours, including the 1993 Nobel Peace Prize, the US Presidential Medal of Freedom, the Soviet Order of Lenin and the Bharat Ratna. He is held in deep respect within South Africa, where he is often referred to by his Xhosa clan name, Madiba, or as Tata ("Father"); he is often described as "the father of the nation".

1 "When Conservatives Branded Nelson Mandela A Terrorist". Forbes. 2013-11-25. Retrieved 2013-12-07.

2 Posted: 12/06/2013 6:33 pm EST. "Here Are 6 Moments From Mandela's Marxist Past That You Won't Hear On CNN". Huffingtonpost.com. Retrieved 2013-12-07.

When Conservatives Branded Nelson Mandela A Terrorist

With the passing of President Nelson Mandela—arguably the most transformative world figure of the last century—our nation’s airwaves are awash in soaring and well deserved testimonials from all sides of the American political spectrum. While the memorials are both heartwarming and sad, the loss of Mandela has also resulted in a great many conversations providing important historical perspective and context via the media coverage—perspective that helps us more fully understand and appreciate just how remarkable and inspirational were the accomplishments of Nelson Mandela.

Indeed, so critical is Mandela to modern world history, each and every one of the living American presidents are planning to travel to South Africa next week to participate in a memorial service honoring the man who is considered the father of the South African nation.

However, there is one retired Vice-President of the United States that will likely not be attending any memorials for this great hero of humanity—either in South Africa or right here at home.

It was Dick Cheney who, while serving as Wyoming’s Republican congressman back in 1986, found it simply beyond his capacity to distinguish between a freedom fighter committed to ending South Africa’s brutal system of apartheid—one of the most evil political systems ever to scar the planet—and a terrorist.

You see, in the mind of Dick Cheney, Nelson Mandela, and those whom he led in the African National Congress, were, indeed, terrorists.

In 1986, the United States Congress, finally coming to grips with the evil that was apartheid, succeeded in passing a bi-partisan bill calling for tough sanctions to be imposed on South Africa and its white leaders until such time as the African nation brought their apartheid laws to an end and freed political prisoners like Nelson Mandela.

While there was no shortage of Congressional Republicans who voted in support of the bill, Congressman Dick Cheney was not one of them. To Cheney, a vote to sanction South Africa for continuing generations of brutal rule would be to cast his support in favor of a terrorist organization who sought to bring an end to the despicable status quo in that country.

When the bill sent over to the White House by Congress was vetoed by then President Ronald Reagan who—along with his ultra-conservative friend, Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher— believed Mandela’s ANC group to be a terrorist organization, Congress successfully overrode Reagan’s veto and made the legislation the law of the land.

That law was one of the most moral and ethical things our Congress has ever done and it only happened because Congressional Republicans were willing to stand up to a Republican President and support what was simply the right thing to do. People like Indiana’s GOP Senator Richard Lugar and Kansas GOP Congresswoman Nancy Kasselbaum heroically defied Ronald Reagan and, for the first time, Congress overrode the desires of the Reagan White House on a matter of foreign policy.

Yet, not only did Dick Cheney vote against the measure on the first go-round, he also voted to uphold the President’s veto when the matter came back to Congress.

It’s more than clear that Cheney was very much on the wrong side of history. If you question that, take a look at the parade of both Republican and Democratic leaders from days gone by who are paying tribute to Mr. Mandela today.

Still, people make mistakes and, over time, these errors in judgment can form the basis of a more well-rounded and well-informed perspective that allows people to get it right when similar issues appear somewhere down the road. Certainly, Dick Cheney must have come to see that his vote had been misguided and that his efforts in support the ghastly, malevolent system that was apartheid was a true blot on his legislative record, yes?

Not so much.

As recently as the year 2000, while campaigning as the nominee of the Republican Party to become our Vice President, Cheney showed up on ABC’s “This Week” program to defend his vote, stating that “the ANC was then viewed as a terrorist organization.” As a result, said Cheney, “ I don’t have any problems at all with the vote I cast 20 years ago.”

Clearly there were those who, back in 1986, viewed the ANC as a terrorist organization. And it is true that the ANC did engage in some violent acts. However, none of the violence perpetrated by the ANC was as heinous as the violence and acts of terrorism carried out by South Africa’s apartheid government. It was, after all, President P.W. Botha who gave the order to bomb the South African Council of Churches in 1988 just as it was with the many South African government leaders preceding Botha who, for decades, killed and maimed black South Africans by the thousands, whether they be political activists or small children.

Yet, when the ANC fought back in an effort to end this horrible political system that had engaged in terror against the black citizens of their nation for generations, it was Mandela and the ANC who were, in the mind of Dick Cheney, the terrorists.

One is left to wonder if Dick Cheney views the American revolutionaries that gave us our own country to be terrorists. Surely, there were many across the pond—along with no small number of British sympathizers right here on our shores—who believed that the revolutionaries were, quite literally, brutal terrorists. Thus, by the standards employed by Cheney, he would appear to have little choice but to view the great founders of this nation to have been terrorists.

Of course, Cheney did go out of his way during that television appearance to label Mandela as a ‘great man’ who had ‘mellowed’ since his release from prison. Talk about a backhanded defense for a bad vote! Cheney couldn’t bring himself to accept that Mandela’s greatness was all too apparent well before he went to jail. Indeed, it was that greatness, expressed through the astonishing grace and leadership Mandela demonstrated during his many years in prison, that played such a critical role in bringing apartheid to an end.

But Dick Cheney could not bring himself to admit that just as he could not bring himself to admit that he had cast a bad vote on a critical, moral issue.

At the time Cheney made this statement on “This Week”, I recall feeling that his comment on Mandela was one of the most revealing of the entire 2000 presidential campaign and provided ample evidence that the Bush ticket may not be the one that was best for the nation. After all, if the Vice Presidential nominee—a man who was already slated to hold a very important place of influence in the administration should his ticket succeed—was incapable of seeing and acknowledging the error of a vote—even if only through the prism of history—what did that say about his judgment and ability to make the kind of course corrections an administration must be prepared to make?

I believe that history bears out the legitimacy of my concerns.

Sadly, Cheney was not alone in his failure of judgment back in 1986 as others still serving in government today chose to support apartheid and label a man who become one of the world’s great heroes to be a terrorist. These people include GOP Reps. Joe Barton, Howard Coble and the powerful Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, Hal Rogers.

Maybe Dick Cheney, along with the others who still hold a place on our national stage, will see the benefits of using the opportunity provided by Nelson Mandela’s passing to set the record straight and acknowledge that they were not only on the wrong side of history but on the wrong side of political decency in the world.

To do so would be a fitting tribute from these politicians to a man who stands as the most important of icons in the world sadly in need of the greatness that was Nelson Mandela.

Here Are 6 Moments From Mandela's Marxist Past That You Won't Hear On CNN

Nelson Mandela is one of the greatest political heroes of the last century -- a man who earned the highest accolades from those at every point on the American ideological spectrum, and who punctuated his political life by working for pragmatic racial political reconciliation. But he also spent much of his life as a radical Marxist allied with global communist luminaries, leading a political party that eventually embraced the violent overthrow of the apartheid government in South Africa.

When President John F. Kennedy pressed to empower anti-colonial forces across the African continent, Mandela and his African National Congress were too radical for American support. President Ronald Reagan was a staunch ally of Mandela's apartheid captors.

Much of that U.S. resistance stemmed from Mandela's affinity for Marxist ideas and his longstanding association with hardline communists. At his 1962 trial on charges of inciting workers' strikes, Mandela insisted he was not a member of Communist Party. Of course, official Communist Party membership is a much different thing than being heavily influenced by Marxism and socialism, which Mandela certainly was, to the great benefit of his people.

Mandela was closely aligned with Marxists around the globe until his death. His affinity for Marxism began as the ideology was the leading global language of anti-oppression. Today, we're witnessing a resurgence, as the ongoing jobs crisis around the globe has pushed young people to reexamine capitalism. A Pew poll in late 2011 showed that Americans from age 18 to 29 were actually more likely to have a positive of view socialism than a negative one. Even the pope has joined in, recently calling unfettered capitalism "a new tyranny."

Mandela was an inspiration for reformers and revolutionaries throughout the 20th century. As a new generation of the dispossessed take a fresh look at his writing, career and speeches, they may find much to draw from.

Mandela was not a monolithic thinker. His ideological perspective shifted over the course of more than 60 years as a political leader. Here are his top Marxist moments.

1. Mandela’s views on poverty as a “social evil.”

“Massive poverty and obscene inequality are such terrible scourges of our times -- times in which the world boasts breathtaking advances in science, technology, industry and wealth accumulation -- that they have to rank alongside slavery and apartheid as social evils.

Overcoming poverty is not a gesture of charity. It is an act of justice. It is the protection of a fundamental human right, the right to dignity and a decent life. While poverty persists, there is no true freedom.” -- Mandela during a 2005 speech on global poverty at London's Trafalgar Square

2. His support for Marxist revolutionary and former Cuban president Fidel Castro during the Cuban Revolution of the 1950s.

"Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro ... Cuban internationalists have done so much for African independence, freedom, and justice. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious imperialist campaign designed to destroy the advances of the Cuban revolution. We too want to control our destiny ... There can be no surrender. It is a case of freedom or death. The Cuban revolution has been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people." -- Mandela during a speech at a Cuban rally on July 26, 1991.

3. Mandela’s efforts to equalize wealth distribution by nationalizing South African industries, including banking and mining, through his support for the 1955 Freedom Charter, which ultimately failed.

Under the subhead “THE PEOPLE SHALL SHARE IN THE COUNTRY'S WEALTH!” the charter says, “The national wealth of our country, the heritage of all South Africans, shall be restored to the people; The mineral wealth beneath the soil, the banks and the monopoly industry shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole …”

Portions on people’s rights to land ownership, employment and health care read, “All shall have the right to occupy land wherever they choose … Men and women of all races shall receive equal pay for equal work; There shall be a forty-hour working-week, a national minimum wage, paid annual leave, and sick leave for all workers, and maternity leave on full pay for all working mothers … Free medical care and hospitalisation shall be provided for all, with special care for mothers and young children.”

In a 1956 article in Liberation entitled “Freedom in our Lifetime,” Mandela wrote, "the Freedom Charter ... serves as a beacon to the Congress Movement and an inspiration to the people of South Africa ... It is a revolutionary document precisely because the changes it envisages cannot be won without breaking up the economic and political set-up of present South Africa."

4. His close personal and political relationship with the leader of the South African Communist Party Joe Slovo, or “Comrade Joe” as Mandela called him.

“When the working people start enjoying, as a right, a roof over their heads, affordable medical care, quality education and a rising standard of living, they will be right to say, Comrade Joe was a chief architect who helped lay the foundation for a better life.” -- Mandela’s speaking at Joe Slovo's funeral in 1995.

Slovo also defended Mandela in court against charges of treason in 1956.

5. The former South African president’s ardent support for labor unions.

Upon release from his 27-year imprisonment in 1990, Mandela took a trip to the U.S., where he stopped at a Ford Motor Co. auto plant in Dearborn, Mich., to express his affinity with union workers:

"Sisters and brothers, friends and comrades, the man who is speaking is not a stranger here. The man who is speaking is a member of the UAW. I am your flesh and blood.” -- Mandela speaking to auto union workers during a U.S. tour in 1990.

6. The longstanding alliance between Nelson Mandela's African National Congress and the South African Communist Party.

"What unites us today is the struggle against racial oppression, and we are not prepared to investigate the political ideology of any particular member of the ANC as long as he or she supports the basic aim of destroying racial oppression.” -- Mandela responding to criticisms over the ANC’s relationship with the South African Communist Party, 1991.

The ANC maintains a tripartite alliance with the South African Communist Party and the Congress of South African Trade Unions.

 

[Dubai Blue]

Aplogies for being so long but there are so many arguments for mandellas involvement in murder sabotage and espionage that I do not know where to start or end
I have already said that Mandella pleaded guilty at trial but however some interesting reading for u here pal.
Most of below is trawled from the net
You specifically mention one bombing or atricity and ask me to show his involvment.
I have tried and also gone on to show the man as no saint Nelson.
He was human and reacted with the ways only humans know best and that is by violence.
Mobilising OF terrorist bombing campaigns,
As the leader of the terrorist wing of ANC MK he is responsible for all atrocities as commander in chief.
He admitted at trial to involvment and 156 further offences inc the jo rail bombings

Inspired by Fidel Castro’s 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo.
Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group’s armed wing
Most early MK members were white communists; after hiding in communist Wolfie Kodesh’s flat in Berea, Mandela moved to the communist-owned Liliesleaf Farm in Rivonia, there joined by Raymond Mhlaba, Slovo and Bernstein, who put together the MK constitution.[
Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links at night, when civilians were not present.
Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism."
It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who oppose apartheid were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes.
In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors.
The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal. ANC and its terrorist arm, which was also controlled by the SACP, were trained in Soviet Russia and Red China, or in Communist “Frontline States” — Zambia, Angola, Mozambique, Tanzania, Zimbabwe Chinese, and other Communist instructors;
Is it so difficult for people to associate Nelson Mandela with the ANC? He is the ANC. He was president of the ANC and he was South Africa's first president representing the ANC.
The ANC came to power through violence most savage - necklacing their own people, killing policemen and councilors, and murdering so-called sell-outs in their thousands.
On June 3 1990, Nelson Mandela told a press conference after leaving a private clinic that "the only type of violence we accept is organized violence in the form of armed action which is properly controlled and where the targets have been carefully selected".
In response to Mandela's call for "targeted" violence, attacks against Black policemen (Mandela's targets) increased from 87 in January 1990 to 886 by 18/5/90. Deaths increased from 1 to 27 in the same period, while homes attacked increased from 45 to 270, and police vehicle attacks went up from 100 to 651.
A violence-free revolution? Mandela never foreswore violence - he refused when asked to do so as a condition of his release. Since the ANC took power and has systematically debased, looted and turned this country into a criminal's paradise, we haven't heard one word from this man whom the world has turned into a demi-God


The Crimes of Terrorist Nelson Mandela
The clever terrorist Nelson Mandela (most have never heard of, denied the opportunity by the treacherous liberal media) and understand why Amnesty International never accepted him as a political prisoner.
Even as the world finally woke up to how wicked Winnie Mandela is, we must face reality about how dangerous and deceitful Nelson Mandela has been.

The fact is that even Amnesty International refused to take on Nelson Mandela’s case because they asserted that he was no political prisoner but had committed numerous violent crimes and had had a fair trial and a reasonable sentence.
Nelson Mandela was the MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party.
He had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
South African President P.W. Botha had, on a number of occasions, offered Nelson Mandela freedom from prison, if he would only renounce terrorist violence. This Mandela refused to do. - Invictus Idolatry


* The full list of munitions and charges read as follows:

• One count under the South African Suppression of Communism Act No. 44 of 1950, charging that the accused committed acts calculated to further the achievement of the objective of communism;

• One count of contravening the South African Criminal Law Act (1953), which prohibits any person from soliciting or receiving any money or articles for the purpose of achieving organized defiance of laws and country; and

• Two counts of sabotage, committing or aiding or procuring the commission of the following acts:

1) The further recruitment of persons for instruction and training, both within and outside the Republic of South Africa, in:

(a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives—for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder);

(b) the art of warfare, including guerrilla warfare, and military training generally for the purpose in the aforesaid Republic;

(ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963);

(iii) Acts of guerrilla warfare in the aforesaid Republic;

(iv) Acts of assistance to military units of foreign countries when involving the aforesaid Republic;

(v) Acts of participation in a violent revolution in the aforesaid Republic, whereby the accused, injured, damaged, destroyed, rendered useless or unserviceable, put out of action, obstructed, with or endangered:


(a) the health or safety of the public;
(b) the maintenance of law and order;

(c) the supply and distribution of light, power or fuel;
(d) postal, telephone or telegraph installations;
(e) the free movement of traffic on land; and
(f) the property, movable or immovable, of other persons or of the state.

Source: The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964, Indictment.

I will go away and do that now pal

I think you need to check your facts. The Jo'burg railway station bombing was carried out by John Frederick Harris, a member of ARM not MK. One elderly lady was killed for which Harris was hanged. I will ask again. Point me to some evidence that Mandela was involved in the MK terror campaign of the 70s and 80s. I have still not seen any evidence that Mandela was involved in killings and neither did the SA court in1964. If they had, he would have been hanged.

Those sources don't sound particularly impartial. They also don't shed any light whatsoever on the question you were asked about his involvement in the 80s bombing campaigns.

And one minor gripe that's beginning to annoy me....... his name's Mandela, not Mandella.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

I left my laptop on the other day and I came back to find not 1 but 2, yes 2! surveys that had been published with my name all over them.
I am deeply sorry but I fear my dog, fergie, may have got on here by mistake. I can only say sorry for any offence caused, especially to anyone I didn't include on the '****' list.

I confess I did suspect something Bob.

Those two threads were really amusing and well put together.

I know. I gave fergie an extra bone. He's so clever. His son, giggsy, not so and appears to spend most of his time trying to hump everything.

I thought it was out of character. After all, it's not like you to post something witty normally.

 

[west didsblue]

Aplogies for being so long but there are so many arguments for mandellas involvement in murder sabotage and espionage that I do not know where to start or end
I have already said that Mandella pleaded guilty at trial but however some interesting reading for u here pal.
Most of below is trawled from the net
You specifically mention one bombing or atricity and ask me to show his involvment.
I have tried and also gone on to show the man as no saint Nelson.
He was human and reacted with the ways only humans know best and that is by violence.
Mobilising OF terrorist bombing campaigns,
As the leader of the terrorist wing of ANC MK he is responsible for all atrocities as commander in chief.
He admitted at trial to involvment and 156 further offences inc the jo rail bombings

Inspired by Fidel Castro’s 26th of July Movement in the Cuban Revolution, in 1961 Mandela co-founded Umkhonto we Sizwe ("Spear of the Nation", abbreviated MK) with Sisulu and the communist Joe Slovo.
Becoming chairman of the militant group, he gained ideas from illegal literature on guerilla warfare by Mao and Che Guevara. Officially separate from the ANC, in later years MK became the group’s armed wing
Most early MK members were white communists; after hiding in communist Wolfie Kodesh’s flat in Berea, Mandela moved to the communist-owned Liliesleaf Farm in Rivonia, there joined by Raymond Mhlaba, Slovo and Bernstein, who put together the MK constitution.[
Operating through a cell structure, the MK agreed to acts of sabotage to exert maximum pressure on the government with minimum casualties, bombing military installations, power plants, telephone lines and transport links at night, when civilians were not present.
Mandela noted that should these tactics fail, MK would resort to "guerilla warfare and terrorism."
It is tempting, therefore, to simplify the subject by declaring that all who oppose apartheid were wholly and unswervingly good. It’s important to remember, however, that Mandela has been the first to hold his hands up to his shortcomings and mistakes.
In books and speeches, he goes to great length to admit his errors.
The real tragedy is that too many in the West can’t bring themselves to see what the great man himself has said all along; that he’s just as flawed as the rest of us, and should not be put on a pedestal. ANC and its terrorist arm, which was also controlled by the SACP, were trained in Soviet Russia and Red China, or in Communist “Frontline States” — Zambia, Angola, Mozambique, Tanzania, Zimbabwe Chinese, and other Communist instructors;
Is it so difficult for people to associate Nelson Mandela with the ANC? He is the ANC. He was president of the ANC and he was South Africa's first president representing the ANC.
The ANC came to power through violence most savage - necklacing their own people, killing policemen and councilors, and murdering so-called sell-outs in their thousands.
On June 3 1990, Nelson Mandela told a press conference after leaving a private clinic that "the only type of violence we accept is organized violence in the form of armed action which is properly controlled and where the targets have been carefully selected".
In response to Mandela's call for "targeted" violence, attacks against Black policemen (Mandela's targets) increased from 87 in January 1990 to 886 by 18/5/90. Deaths increased from 1 to 27 in the same period, while homes attacked increased from 45 to 270, and police vehicle attacks went up from 100 to 651.
A violence-free revolution? Mandela never foreswore violence - he refused when asked to do so as a condition of his release. Since the ANC took power and has systematically debased, looted and turned this country into a criminal's paradise, we haven't heard one word from this man whom the world has turned into a demi-God


The Crimes of Terrorist Nelson Mandela
The clever terrorist Nelson Mandela (most have never heard of, denied the opportunity by the treacherous liberal media) and understand why Amnesty International never accepted him as a political prisoner.
Even as the world finally woke up to how wicked Winnie Mandela is, we must face reality about how dangerous and deceitful Nelson Mandela has been.

The fact is that even Amnesty International refused to take on Nelson Mandela’s case because they asserted that he was no political prisoner but had committed numerous violent crimes and had had a fair trial and a reasonable sentence.
Nelson Mandela was the MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party.
He had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
South African President P.W. Botha had, on a number of occasions, offered Nelson Mandela freedom from prison, if he would only renounce terrorist violence. This Mandela refused to do. - Invictus Idolatry


* The full list of munitions and charges read as follows:

• One count under the South African Suppression of Communism Act No. 44 of 1950, charging that the accused committed acts calculated to further the achievement of the objective of communism;

• One count of contravening the South African Criminal Law Act (1953), which prohibits any person from soliciting or receiving any money or articles for the purpose of achieving organized defiance of laws and country; and

• Two counts of sabotage, committing or aiding or procuring the commission of the following acts:

1) The further recruitment of persons for instruction and training, both within and outside the Republic of South Africa, in:

(a) the preparation, manufacture and use of explosives—for the purpose of committing acts of violence and destruction in the aforesaid Republic, (the preparation and manufacture of explosives, according to evidence submitted, included 210,000 hand grenades, 48,000 anti-personnel mines, 1,500 time devices, 144 tons of ammonium nitrate, 21.6 tons of aluminum powder and a ton of black powder);

(b) the art of warfare, including guerrilla warfare, and military training generally for the purpose in the aforesaid Republic;

(ii) Further acts of violence and destruction, (this includes 193 counts of terrorism committed between 1961 and 1963);

(iii) Acts of guerrilla warfare in the aforesaid Republic;

(iv) Acts of assistance to military units of foreign countries when involving the aforesaid Republic;

(v) Acts of participation in a violent revolution in the aforesaid Republic, whereby the accused, injured, damaged, destroyed, rendered useless or unserviceable, put out of action, obstructed, with or endangered:


(a) the health or safety of the public;
(b) the maintenance of law and order;

(c) the supply and distribution of light, power or fuel;
(d) postal, telephone or telegraph installations;
(e) the free movement of traffic on land; and
(f) the property, movable or immovable, of other persons or of the state.

Source: The State v. Nelson Mandela et al, Supreme Court of South Africa, Transvaal Provincial Division, 1963-1964, Indictment.

I will go away and do that now pal

I think you need to check your facts. The Jo'burg railway station bombing was carried out by John Frederick Harris, a member of ARM not MK. One elderly lady was killed for which Harris was hanged. I will ask again. Point me to some evidence that Mandela was involved in the MK terror campaign of the 70s and 80s. I have still not seen any evidence that Mandela was involved in killings and neither did the SA court in1964. If they had, he would have been hanged.

None of that waffle answers anything about his alleged involvement in the terror campaign of the 70s and 80s.
This is like debating with the Bosnians in the Dzeko thread. I'm out.

 

[bobmcfc]

The Mandella roll of honour
Drum roll if you please..

Church Street West, Pretoria, on the 20 May 1983

-Amanzimtoti Shopping complex KZN, 23 December 1985

-Krugersdorp Magistrate’s Court, 17 March 1988

-Durban Pick ‘n Pay shopping complex, 1 September 1986

-Pretoria Sterland movie complex 16 April 1988 – limpet mine killed ANC terrorist M O Maponya instead

-Johannesburg Magistrate’s Court, 20 May 1987

-Roodepoort Standard Bank 3

And he managed to do all that whilst locked in a cell on Robben Island with no contact with the outside world. Incredible.

Was just about to ask how he did all that considering he was locked up since 1962

 

[Plaything of the gods]

 

[Manchester_lalala]

Is going to a Christmas fancy dress party as nelson Mandela racist or disrespectful? I don't see what the problem is but currently having a arguement over it.

 

[dazdon]

Is going to a Christmas fancy dress party as nelson Mandela racist or disrespectful? I don't see what the problem is but currently having a arguement over it.

Carrying the AK47 might be deemed at bit OTT but dressing as NM might be ok.