Nelson Mandela RIP

[mrcunny]

Ok, and funnily enough I'm no more experienced than you as i've never been either, but I come from the viewpoint that when the ANC took power, they were highly unlikely to completely transform their own methods of justice (tyre necklaces, beatings, whatever) in an instance - they were not mature, western style politicians and civil servants - there would inevitably be a steep learning curve, but they had a basis on which to become a better country, which the Apartheid regime did not, and so it seems to have come to pass - SA is a better place now than in the early 90's, no longer is it a blot on the African and World map.

As soon as the ANC came to power, the country was not going to become so rich overnight it could eradicate murder and crime instantaneously - that requires lots of police and infrastructure they plainly still need to build on, but at least there is a chance for the majority blacks to be part of the security now.

The examples you gave in your first post are not true of the modern day SA, although murder, rape and crime rates are still way too high, but the framework is there now to include all SA's citizens in building and improving their own country, this could never happen under Apartheid.

In the end, look to the South Africans to see what they think the future holds, and what Mandela means to them, taking aside the usual grumbles that all citizens have with their governments.

OK BJ.

Good shot.

They created the basis for a better society than Apartheid ever could be. I agree with that.

As to whether it has lived up to the billing I'm not so sure.

They've had the basis now for quite a long time - is it 20 years now ? I've heard the place is declining both socially and economically. I've heard the wealth is being concentrated in a new elite though no longer white at least. Will it end up like Zimbabwe ? Only time will tell. I can't really comment on what is better or worse or what is in the minds of the people because as you say I only know what I read and hear and havenever been there.

By the way, RIP Mandella doesn't necessarily mean it is a commemorative thread. You may not have noticed but quite a few posters on this site are big on irony.

Remember RIP Fergie ?

Fair play CityBoy, although by the time you posted I think it was pretty clear old Nelson had shuffled off this mortal coil for real, unlike the late, great Phil Collins, who, rather zombie like, doesn't seem to know when to stay dead :)

It's up to the people of SA now to get their shit together, and hopefully as one nation.

Im sad to say phil collins was on the car radio yesterday and i blurted out rip phil to which my mrs said she didnt know he had died..where as this woman been for the last few years...lol

 

[lloydie]

I don't live in South Africa and I have never visited South Africa.

I have no idea whether it is better or worse for Mandella having lived.

You tell us BJ, based on your experiences, whether it is better or worse and, more particularly tell us why .

Please don't start by saying he defeated racism though. If you are going to start with that, and you probably will, then include in your response your explanation of why you believe it would be preferable to live in fear of a necklace for speaking out of turn or treading on the wrong toes, than it would be to live in a state of inequality and racism but with a much lower level or murder and lawlessness - I don't know if it was or not but just give us your views anyway as a lot of this is conjecture anyway from people with limited or no first-hand experience.

Go on the BJ. Now's your chance for a balance discussion.

Ok, and funnily enough I'm no more experienced than you as i've never been either, but I come from the viewpoint that when the ANC took power, they were highly unlikely to completely transform their own methods of justice (tyre necklaces, beatings, whatever) in an instance - they were not mature, western style politicians and civil servants - there would inevitably be a steep learning curve, but they had a basis on which to become a better country, which the Apartheid regime did not, and so it seems to have come to pass - SA is a better place now than in the early 90's, no longer is it a blot on the African and World map.

As soon as the ANC came to power, the country was not going to become so rich overnight it could eradicate murder and crime instantaneously - that requires lots of police and infrastructure they plainly still need to build on, but at least there is a chance for the majority blacks to be part of the security now.

The examples you gave in your first post are not true of the modern day SA, although murder, rape and crime rates are still way too high, but the framework is there now to include all SA's citizens in building and improving their own country, this could never happen under Apartheid.

In the end, look to the South Africans to see what they think the future holds, and what Mandela means to them, taking aside the usual grumbles that all citizens have with their governments.

OK BJ.

Good shot.

They created the basis for a better society than Apartheid ever could be. I agree with that.

As to whether it has lived up to the billing I'm not so sure.

They've had the basis now for quite a long time - is it 20 years now ? I've heard the place is declining both socially and economically. I've heard the wealth is being concentrated in a new elite though no longer white at least. Will it end up like Zimbabwe ? Only time will tell. I can't really comment on what is better or worse or what is in the minds of the people because as you say I only know what I read and hear and havenever been there.

By the way, RIP Mandella doesn't necessarily mean it is a commemorative thread. You may not have noticed but quite a few posters on this site are big on irony.

Remember RIP Fergie ?

Source?

You made that up didn't you?

Average salary of Whites currently 6 times that of Blacks.

 

[DelToro]

Whenever I post like a **** i'll just blame someone else too ;-)

There's another 200 posters who I am waiting for to say the same thing as Ban.

 

[mcfclovin88]

It certainly was a brilliant backtracking, changing his username and then blaming his house mate.

 

[BimboBob]

Whenever I post like a **** i'll just blame someone else too ;-)

There's another 200 posters who I am waiting for to say the same thing as Ban.

I left my laptop on the other day and I came back to find not 1 but 2, yes 2! surveys that had been published with my name all over them.
I am deeply sorry but I fear my dog, fergie, may have got on here by mistake. I can only say sorry for any offence caused, especially to anyone I didn't include on the '****' list.

 

[dronefromsector7g]

Been hacked for ages. I'm teetotal!

 

[DelToro]

Whenever I post like a **** i'll just blame someone else too ;-)

There's another 200 posters who I am waiting for to say the same thing as Ban.

I left my laptop on the other day and I came back to find not 1 but 2, yes 2! surveys that had been published with my name all over them.
I am deeply sorry but I fear my dog, fergie, may have got on here by mistake. I can only say sorry for any offence caused, especially to anyone I didn't include on the '****' list.

I confess I did suspect something Bob.

Those two threads were really amusing and well put together.

 

[mcmanus]

Whenever I post like a **** i'll just blame someone else too ;-)

There's another 200 posters who I am waiting for to say the same thing as Ban.

I left my laptop on the other day and I came back to find not 1 but 2, yes 2! surveys that had been published with my name all over them.
I am deeply sorry but I fear my dog, fergie, may have got on here by mistake. I can only say sorry for any offence caused, especially to anyone I didn't include on the '****' list.

Shit. I've answered a survey started by a canine. I am a ****.

 

[BimboBob]

There's another 200 posters who I am waiting for to say the same thing as Ban.

I left my laptop on the other day and I came back to find not 1 but 2, yes 2! surveys that had been published with my name all over them.
I am deeply sorry but I fear my dog, fergie, may have got on here by mistake. I can only say sorry for any offence caused, especially to anyone I didn't include on the '****' list.

I confess I did suspect something Bob.

Those two threads were really amusing and well put together.

I know. I gave fergie an extra bone. He's so clever. His son, giggsy, not so and appears to spend most of his time trying to hump everything.

 

[DelToro]

There's another 200 posters who I am waiting for to say the same thing as Ban.

I left my laptop on the other day and I came back to find not 1 but 2, yes 2! surveys that had been published with my name all over them.
I am deeply sorry but I fear my dog, fergie, may have got on here by mistake. I can only say sorry for any offence caused, especially to anyone I didn't include on the '****' list.

Shit. I've answered a survey started by a canine. I am a ****.

Life's á woman.

It gives me paws for thought.

I responded too, so that makes us both ****s