NHS Strike

[Anonymous]

Funny, the fella keeps engaging with those he accuses of insulting him yet doesn't bother with someone who highlights the speciousness and paucity of his argument.

Guess I must have been foed!

Breitbart wum.

Night folks.

 

[Rascal]

Why don't you explain to me why the workers and taxpayers in this country need to pay more than the market dictates for NHS wages?

.

Because the market is not the ideal way to decide public sector outcomes.

The market can fail and does regularly because its biased towards the monied. A public sector service can never be allowed to fail as the consequences far outweigh some free market enterprise going bust. I couldnt give two fucks if some entreprunner goes broke, its his problem. The NHS is everyones issue. It cannot fail. Its that important to the fabric of the UK.

The NHS is the most important institution in the country, perhaps not to you but to millions it is. If the NHS collapsed it would be catastrophic...... can you really not see that?

The simple problem with the free market principle in this case (and in other public sectors) is there isn't a significant alternative employer for nurses and doctors to create the market. It is further hindered by national wage settlements.

The proposed NHS reinstatement bill is worth a look http://www.allysonpollock.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/NHS_Reinstatement_Bill_29Aug14.pdf

Thanks MB will have a read when i can pal. Its 50 pages long :)

Bit late for me tonight as im knackered. I have saved it though.

The whole public v private sector debate is mindless in my opinion. Workers are workers whatever they do. I worked for the BBC we were far better as a state owned broadcaster than ITV, they were useless.


But i want the Railways, the Gas, the Electricity, the Water, the Post Office,the Oil brought back into public ownership so the people can decide who gets what not some rich banking **** in the City of London who distributes millions to his mates and they all go an a fucking jolly laughing at how idiotic the people of the UK have been buying into there shit.

 

[urmston]

Why don't you explain to me why the workers and taxpayers in this country need to pay more than the market dictates for NHS wages?

.

Because the market is not the ideal way to decide public sector outcomes.

The market can fail and does regularly because its biased towards the monied. A public sector service can never be allowed to fail as the consequences far outweigh some free market enterprise going bust. I couldnt give two fucks if some entreprunner goes broke, its his problem. The NHS is everyones issue. It cannot fail. Its that important to the fabric of the UK.

The NHS is the most important institution in the country, perhaps not to you but to millions it is. If the NHS collapsed it would be catastrophic...... can you really not see that?

The simple problem with the free market principle in this case (and in other public sectors) is there isn't a significant alternative employer for nurses and doctors to create the market. It is further hindered by national wage settlements.

The proposed NHS reinstatement bill is worth a look http://www.allysonpollock.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/NHS_Reinstatement_Bill_29Aug14.pdf

The correct level of pay for nurses, teachers other pubic sector staff will never be an exact science but if pay all over the economy is stagnant or falling, unemployment is a real problem and public sector recruitment is not a problem, then it should be fairly obvious to most people that increasing public sector pay is not necessary.

I can think of no persuasive argument why public sector staff are now worthy of higher wages at the same time as most other workers are not.

 

[Rascal]

The correct level of pay for nurses, teachers other pubic sector staff will never be an exact science but if pay all over the economy is stagnant or falling, unemployment is a real problem and public sector recruitment is not a problem, then it should be fairly obvious to most people that increasing public sector pay is not necessary.

I can think of no persuasive argument why public sector staff are now worthy of higher wages at the same time as most other workers are not.

Yet still you give us no reason why you think this way. What do you do? Perhaps if you did you may get a little compassion.


I have even tried to look at your points from an Economists point of view and you talk shit

 

[BlueBearBoots]

Rasc you posted - "The whole public v private sector debate is mindless in my opinion. Workers are workers whatever they do"


I think this is one of the points urmston is making as in why should the public sector have rises when private sector works on the whole aren't?

 

[FantasyIreland]

If I was on such a good number working for the NHS,why have I left? and how have I found a job in the private sector where my abilities are rewarded far better? and where I don't get treated like dirt by my employers and my (incredibly long....)working day is no longer the most miserable experience imaginable?

Because,by your reasoning,this shouldn't be possible.

 

[Anonymous]

If I was on such a good number working for the NHS,why have I left? and how have I found a job in the private sector where my abilities are rewarded far better? and where I don't get treated like dirt by my employers and my (incredibly long....)working day is no longer the most miserable experience imaginable?

Because,by your reasoning,this shouldn't be possible.

Careful, you'll be on the ignore list as well.

 

[Rascal]

Rasc you posted - "The whole public v private sector debate is mindless in my opinion. Workers are workers whatever they do"


I think this is one of the points urmston is making as in why should the public sector have rises when private sector works on the whole aren't?

Urmston was idiotically trying to say private taxes were worth more. as they paid tax.


The simple answer is we vote for pay rises for our public workers, the private sector dont.

If Urmston stood at the nest election on what he proposes in the constituncey of Urmston he would get 50 votes top as he talks nonsense.


And what i really despise is that are people like Urmston who try to make a distinction between honest working people and they try to divide the working class based on the jobs they do.... Urmston has till not told us what he does BTW

 

[St Helens Blue (Exiled)]

market forces
supply and demand.

fuck it.im reverting to type..urmston ...****

 

[FantasyIreland]

If I was on such a good number working for the NHS,why have I left? and how have I found a job in the private sector where my abilities are rewarded far better? and where I don't get treated like dirt by my employers and my (incredibly long....)working day is no longer the most miserable experience imaginable?

Because,by your reasoning,this shouldn't be possible.

Careful, you'll be on the ignore list as well.

It would appear I already am.His blinkered,singular outlook obviously doesn't allow for reality.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I have no idea who they even are but I think they just commented on the story, it wasn't their research It says the research was carried out by the Institute of Fiscal Studies (who I equally know nothing about).

There seems to be a big gap in the article / "research" about pension contributions - unless I have missed the obvious?

No idea what you mean there. Just copied it from <a class="postlink" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/pensions/11152840/Public-vs-private-sector-pay-gap-is-5000-or-a-fifth-of-earnings.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/pers ... nings.html</a>

Thanks Knaresborough Blue

The article doesn't mention what percentage or amount of their salaries public and private workers are investing to get their respective pensions.

Yes pensions in the NHS are good (and typically better than the private sector) but without the pension contribution information, the earnings figures quoted could be misleading.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I will play along.

Urmston, what jobs do you think that a nurse (let's say just a standard run of the mill nurse with no management or extra responsibilities) should have a similar pay to?

Also, which other jobs aren't deserving of a pay rise?

I don't need to know the answers to either of those two questions. The market decides pay rates, not me.

But I do know that the NHS, broadly speaking, has no recruitment problems for most jobs. There is a vast oversubscription for nursing courses, courses for other medical jobs and courses for other public sector jobs like teaching, something which always happens in difficult economic times when the public sector is seen as especially attractive to youngsters seeking a secure and reasonably paid job. There is also high unemployment and high numbers of people who can only find part time work.

In view of these facts I would expect the pressure on NHS pay to be downwards in the next few years, not upwards.

I do agree that nurses and teachers are unlikely to be jobs that will have shortages in the near future. However, there could be a person really enthusiastic and perfect for the job of nurse/teacher and then when they see the pay on offer choose to go down a different career path. Therefore, by your supply and demand theory the patients/children have been deprived of getting the service they deserve.

There are already chronic shortages of emergency care nurses. Hospitals are routinely recruiting (again) from Spain and Portugal for nurses and paying agents finders fees.

Nurse training programmes are greatly oversubscribed but that's not the same as having experienced nurses / midwifes in theatres and on the wards. This is partly due to poor management not growing their own workforces. However, current market forces (for those relying on this argument) would justify higher pay for skilled nurses.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't need to know the answers to either of those two questions. The market decides pay rates, not me.

But I do know that the NHS, broadly speaking, has no recruitment problems for most jobs. There is a vast oversubscription for nursing courses, courses for other medical jobs and courses for other public sector jobs like teaching, something which always happens in difficult economic times when the public sector is seen as especially attractive to youngsters seeking a secure and reasonably paid job. There is also high unemployment and high numbers of people who can only find part time work.

In view of these facts I would expect the pressure on NHS pay to be downwards in the next few years, not upwards.

I do agree that nurses and teachers are unlikely to be jobs that will have shortages in the near future. However, there could be a person really enthusiastic and perfect for the job of nurse/teacher and then when they see the pay on offer choose to go down a different career path. Therefore, by your supply and demand theory the patients/children have been deprived of getting the service they deserve.

There are already chronic shortages of emergency care nurses. Hospitals are routinely recruiting (again) from Spain and Portugal for nurses and paying agents finders fees.

Nurse training programmes are greatly oversubscribed but that's not the same as having experienced nurses / midwifes in theatres and on the wards. This is partly due to poor management not growing their own workforces. However, current market forces (for those relying on this argument) would justify higher pay for skilled nurses.

You're another on his foe list mate. You can't come on here with facts that fly in the face of the free market and challenging Alfred Marshall and his pretty graph; you'll have him all hot and flustered in his entrenched and narrow microeconomic view of the world.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I do agree that nurses and teachers are unlikely to be jobs that will have shortages in the near future. However, there could be a person really enthusiastic and perfect for the job of nurse/teacher and then when they see the pay on offer choose to go down a different career path. Therefore, by your supply and demand theory the patients/children have been deprived of getting the service they deserve.

There are already chronic shortages of emergency care nurses. Hospitals are routinely recruiting (again) from Spain and Portugal for nurses and paying agents finders fees.

Nurse training programmes are greatly oversubscribed but that's not the same as having experienced nurses / midwifes in theatres and on the wards. This is partly due to poor management not growing their own workforces. However, current market forces (for those relying on this argument) would justify higher pay for skilled nurses.

You're another on his foe list mate. You can't come on here with facts that fly in the face of the free market and challenging Alfred Marshall and his pretty graph; you'll have him all hot and flustered in his entrenched and narrow microeconomic view of the world.

Cheers Mate

I spent the weekend in Urmston (either side of the 4-1) and I'm not surprised by our friend!!

 

[Anonymous]

Gorgeous George visits an 'ospickle:

 

[Blue Maverick]

Says it all really
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-bonuses-chiefs-pocket-116-3553527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nh ... 16-3553527</a>

 

[malg]

Says it all really
<a class="postlink" href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-bonuses-chiefs-pocket-116-3553527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nh ... 16-3553527</a>

This happened under the last government as well. Senior managers don't just get paid a shit load of money, but that if they do their job, then they get a bonus as well. If the rest of us do a good job, we get to keep the job. Also, for them to do their job well they need to make cuts, thereby saving the organisation money (but not always making it better - that's why they pay someone a shit load to 'massage' statistics). This works all the way down the NHS, where they replace Band 4 jobs with Band 3, and Band 3 with Band 2. They have also started a nice little game in replacing staff on 37.5 hour contracts with people on 35 hour contracts. Cracking little job that, so they pay less in wages, and less hours - brilliant. They don't give a shite that they're fucking with people's lives, they just care that the bonus is there at the end of the year to top up their already inflated wages.

Hey, that's life though.......

 

[urmston]

UK public finance worsen as borrowing rises again

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/oct/21/china-growth-slows-uk-public-finances-business-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... iness-live</a>


When employers are in trouble they rarely give pay rises to their staff.

 

[Blue Maverick]

UK public finance worsen as borrowing rises again

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/oct/21/china-growth-slows-uk-public-finances-business-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... iness-live</a>


When employers are in trouble they rarely give pay rises to their staff.

Then why are the managers getting bonuses then?

 

[Anonymous]

UK public finance worsen as borrowing rises again

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2014/oct/21/china-growth-slows-uk-public-finances-business-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/business/liv ... iness-live</a>


When employers are in trouble they rarely give pay rises to their staff.

Then why are the managers getting bonuses then?

He's a busted flush and has no argument worth considering, even by his own admission.