Now all the kids have gone to bed...

Good thread.

I have argued that we should give Hughes time. I am firmly in the "we need stability camp" not the "I love Mark Hughes camp". I am however, growing increasingly concerned by the football we are playing (or not playing) and was disgusted with virtaully all I saw last night. I do not however, believe that this can be 100% laid at the door of the manager. Our over paid, ineffectual squad need to shoulder a significant amount of the blame, in particular those such as Elano who are only interested in themselves not the greater good of the club (or the fans). They are professional and should act like it.

That said, whatever the cause, we are in the shit. We need to identify the cause in order to rectify it. I hope that the powers that be in the club are a) aware of the situation (I assume they have eyes like the rest of us) and b) are close enough to it to really determine whether it is Hughes and his mgt team, or the players. They are the ones that have to make the call, they are closer to what is happening than us, and hopefully can make rational decisions based on fact not emotion (most of us on here are driven by emotion and not fact - myself included - that's why we love football and City).

Because I firmly believe in stability, I opt for more time. BUT if things do not pick up soon, and the management think it is definitely Hughes and not the pool of crap players we have who do not put their soul into playing for us, then Hughes must go.
 
Brucie Bonus said:
Ric said:
Fair points IP, but who do you suggest takes over. Who is available of course. No point naming Mourinho because he ain't coming, not now at least.

Mancini is available. Backyard is available. Zico has made himself "available".

I don't see how any of them are guaranteed to do any better...

It's interesting to read other's comments on here and gives a clue to what's behind the inherent support from a lot of us...

I'm certainly not for sacking him now, as I don't see who else we could get that will guarantee instantly better performances/results... But even The Special One couldn't do that. (That's 100% guarantee anything!) But I suppose, like Schrodinger's Cat, we don't know til we 'open the box' eh. But as stated already, if Hughes was sacked then it's a case of 'The King is Dead, Long Live The King'... Again!

The more interesting point though is what is going through the minds of the Arabs... They strike me as extremely shrewd cookies and will only sack Hughes if they know they can get a really big name, like Mourinho, Hiddink etc... to replace him. They will not let the club slide too far without a plan B, I just wonder what it is...?

The next 3 games will certainly have a large bearing on what they do, because if we do poorly over Xmas, their hand will be forced...

Never a dull minute!

Onwards and Upwards...
 
Weston Blue said:
Good thread.

I have argued that we should give Hughes time. I am firmly in the "we need stability camp" not the "I love Mark Hughes camp". I am however, growing increasingly concerned by the football we are playing (or not playing) and was disgusted with virtaully all I saw last night. I do not however, believe that this can be 100% laid at the door of the manager. Our over paid, ineffectual squad need to shoulder a significant amount of the blame, in particular those such as Elano who are only interested in themselves not the greater good of the club (or the fans). They are professional and should act like it.

That said, whatever the cause, we are in the shit. We need to identify the cause in order to rectify it. I hope that the powers that be in the club are a) aware of the situation (I assume they have eyes like the rest of us) and b) are close enough to it to really determine whether it is Hughes and his mgt team, or the players. They are the ones that have to make the call, they are closer to what is happening than us, and hopefully can make rational decisions based on fact not emotion (most of us on here are driven by emotion and not fact - myself included - that's why we love football and City).

Because I firmly believe in stability, I opt for more time. BUT if things do not pick up soon, and the management think it is definitely Hughes and not the pool of crap players we have who do not put their soul into playing for us, then Hughes must go.

Its never one or the other IMO , its a combination of both but in the end if its not working you have to replace the manager.

We cannot afford to let our form continue to slide downhill any longer its too risky there is too much at stake , the only solice we can take is that every side that has replaced their manager so far this year has made improvement in performance and results lets see what Blackburn do in the next week.
 
PaulC1979 said:
Good to have a proper convesational thread on this topic anyway without it turning into pathetic name calling and internet fighting!

Eh? What's going on?

No arguing or name calling?

People making good reasoned points and allowing other's their own opinions...?

This will never do!

MODS!

PS Seriously though. Like everyone, I'm still in shock about Oldham Blue and certainly we're all a bit humbled by those events, hence the break-out of common sense, probably. Also a shame that Scorer did one at just that time too, reckon he was in need of a just such a reality check like most of the rest of us...

Rest in Peace Dave.

Lest we forget Blues.....
 
I can't decide. Head says he's taking us backwards and we look shapeless. My heart says he's got the ability...
 
Weston Blue said:
Good thread.

I have argued that we should give Hughes time. I am firmly in the "we need stability camp" not the "I love Mark Hughes camp". I am however, growing increasingly concerned by the football we are playing (or not playing) and was disgusted with virtaully all I saw last night. I do not however, believe that this can be 100% laid at the door of the manager. Our over paid, ineffectual squad need to shoulder a significant amount of the blame, in particular those such as Elano who are only interested in themselves not the greater good of the club (or the fans). They are professional and should act like it.

That said, whatever the cause, we are in the shit. We need to identify the cause in order to rectify it. I hope that the powers that be in the club are a) aware of the situation (I assume they have eyes like the rest of us) and b) are close enough to it to really determine whether it is Hughes and his mgt team, or the players. They are the ones that have to make the call, they are closer to what is happening than us, and hopefully can make rational decisions based on fact not emotion (most of us on here are driven by emotion and not fact - myself included - that's why we love football and City).

Because I firmly believe in stability, I opt for more time. BUT if things do not pick up soon, and the management think it is definitely Hughes and not the pool of crap players we have who do not put their soul into playing for us, then Hughes must go.


100% agree with all of the above.
 
RobbieBrewer said:
simon23 said:
people automatically blame the manager but some of the players simply are not good enough

this form now is a continuation of the poor form in the second half of the season.....sven started to build a side but only got the job half done...he added creativity and a bit of style (albeit very slow) to our game....

MH needs time to develop the team


look at the 1st team squad...there are a large number of players not upto standard

vass
hamman
gelson?
benjani
ball
garrido (just my opinion and i know people will disagree)
dunne...just to hit and miss
caceido
tbh
evans
Jo?????????????????

really Mh is only responsible for one fo those players.......TBH though it could be argues he had the last word on Jo

You could see it in hammans face and reaction last night...he knows that a lot of those players on their last night are simply not good enough.....he was so frustrated.....partly probably with himself but also his reaction to evans and TBH at points told it all..


I partly agree with you but ask yourself how many players at Hull are any better than the ones you list?Any manager can blame the players he inherits for his problems-but he just has to get on with it.Rednapp has transformed Spuds since he took over...why?He's working with the same players Ramos was!!
And I'm pretty sure that fat sam will get better results than Ince at Blackburn!

I'm just not convinced by Hughes,his man-management or his tactics but I'd love to be totally wrong...

i think that some on here believe that some of our players are better than they are.....the likes of the ones ive mentioned are nto as good as some of those teams like Hull have......infact the only players whow we have who id descirbe as top draw or certain prem quality are , Hart (even he has a lot to learn), Richards (though not at the moment), ireland, swp, robinho, elano and kompany (Not including the likes of Jonno petrov and maybe boj as they have not featured......the rest are average middle of the table players at best.

i think some people on here seriously over estimate the current squad of players and their ability. We are seriously lacking any goal threat from any striker option we have at present......our play is reasonable good up until the last third when the midfield have it but NO options ahead of them so the move breaks down.....

add a quality centre forward or two plus the addition of Boj petrov and jonno and we will be a lot better for it.
 
simon23 said:
RobbieBrewer said:
I partly agree with you but ask yourself how many players at Hull are any better than the ones you list?Any manager can blame the players he inherits for his problems-but he just has to get on with it.Rednapp has transformed Spuds since he took over...why?He's working with the same players Ramos was!!
And I'm pretty sure that fat sam will get better results than Ince at Blackburn!

I'm just not convinced by Hughes,his man-management or his tactics but I'd love to be totally wrong...

i think that some on here believe that some of our players are better than they are.....the likes of the ones ive mentioned are nto as good as some of those teams like Hull have......infact the only players whow we have who id descirbe as top draw or certain prem quality are , Hart (even he has a lot to learn), Richards (though not at the moment), ireland, swp, robinho, elano and kompany (Not including the likes of Jonno petrov and maybe boj as they have not featured......the rest are average middle of the table players at best.

i think some people on here seriously over estimate the current squad of players and their ability. We are seriously lacking any goal threat from any striker option we have at present......our play is reasonable good up until the last third when the midfield have it but NO options ahead of them so the move breaks down.....

add a quality centre forward or two plus the addition of Boj petrov and jonno and we will be a lot better for it.

Yes but do you think we are better than 17/18th Simon?

If so why are we not performing as a side that should be higher in the table?
 
mancity1 said:
simon23 said:
i think that some on here believe that some of our players are better than they are.....the likes of the ones ive mentioned are nto as good as some of those teams like Hull have......infact the only players whow we have who id descirbe as top draw or certain prem quality are , Hart (even he has a lot to learn), Richards (though not at the moment), ireland, swp, robinho, elano and kompany (Not including the likes of Jonno petrov and maybe boj as they have not featured......the rest are average middle of the table players at best.

i think some people on here seriously over estimate the current squad of players and their ability. We are seriously lacking any goal threat from any striker option we have at present......our play is reasonable good up until the last third when the midfield have it but NO options ahead of them so the move breaks down.....

add a quality centre forward or two plus the addition of Boj petrov and jonno and we will be a lot better for it.

Yes but do you think we are better than 17/18th Simon?

If so why are we not performing as a side that should be higher in the table?

yes i do think we are but the distinct lack of quality in key areas is holding us back....

the distribution and general performance of the back four at present is poor....i think this will sort itself eventually......in the league dunne in the last few games has started to look more solid but he is accident prone....richards...he has the quality but he is clearly not fit for what every reason (i dont know).....garrido is average, zabaleta....jury is out on him.....still not sure....does some great things but also makes some horrendous decisions/errors/tackles

midfield.......got good attacking options but due to the demise of hamman/absense of Jonno and the fact that gelson isnt good enough the balance is not there....hopefully that will be sorted in January

attack....as i keep going on about (sorry!!) this is the area that is hugely making the difference.....if swp, irelans or rob arent scoring from midfiedl the not one of our attackers offers anything in the way of a goal threat....the ball is usually nicely worked in to the last third only for our front players to be static....not making runs...dominated on the ball, slow to move and react....etc etc etc.....this all leads to the ball being lost or going backwards to the back 4...whose distribution is poor.

Injuries have played a part there is no doubt and while im not trying to make excuses (and i dont think MH would use this)...they have been key injuries....esp petrov.

In all the league games we have played and lost in which i have seen virtually all either full games or highlights....i personally dont think we have been outclassed by anyone except utd and chelski.....yes we have not played at anywhere near the standard we can (ie pompey) but at boro, everon and others we have been equal to them and ended up losing in unlucky circumstances/bad ref decisions (penalty at bor was it????)....again all these things have made a difference.

This is why i believe we should give MH a chance.....give him time to get teh balance right and get hsome quality into key areas
 
simon23 said:
infact the only players whow we have who id descirbe as top draw or certain prem quality are , Hart (even he has a lot to learn), Richards (though not at the moment), ireland, swp, robinho, elano and kompany (Not including the likes of Jonno petrov and maybe boj as they have not featured......the rest are average middle of the table players at best.
If I may remind you: we were fourth in the prem table by last christmas. And the squad then only contained six or seven of the players you have mentioned. No SWP, no Robinho, no Kompany.

The squad is good enough for at least top six.
 
barney8 said:
simon23 said:
infact the only players whow we have who id descirbe as top draw or certain prem quality are , Hart (even he has a lot to learn), Richards (though not at the moment), ireland, swp, robinho, elano and kompany (Not including the likes of Jonno petrov and maybe boj as they have not featured......the rest are average middle of the table players at best.
If I may remind you: we were fourth in the prem table by last christmas. And the squad then only contained six or seven of the players you have mentioned. No SWP, no Robinho, no Kompany.

The squad is good enough for at least top six.

i think sven scrapped by with some results......and the same squad that you correctly point out were 6th or 7th then went on to have a terrible second half of the season.

some of the squad is good enough for top 6...like the ones you mention....but too many are not...vass, evans, Jo(?), benjani, hamman, gelson, TBH, garrido ( i know he has been playing better but he still isnt good enough),

also that squad that got to 6th/ 7th had petrov and Jonno in and they were key to teh great start we had last season. (esp petrov)
 
barney8 said:
simon23 said:
infact the only players whow we have who id descirbe as top draw or certain prem quality are , Hart (even he has a lot to learn), Richards (though not at the moment), ireland, swp, robinho, elano and kompany (Not including the likes of Jonno petrov and maybe boj as they have not featured......the rest are average middle of the table players at best.
If I may remind you: we were fourth in the prem table by last christmas. And the squad then only contained six or seven of the players you have mentioned. No SWP, no Robinho, no Kompany.

The squad is good enough for at least top six.

"At least top six"?! What do you base that assumption on? Sixth at absolute best and that would be a miracle. Football isn't played on paper and in 2008 we have been lousy.

We started well last season but anyone who saw us would tell you that we rode our luck to a massive degree.
 
Well this post might go against the commonly held opinions on here but in my eyes as a fan there are two main aspects that reflect the managers' success on the pitch: results & performance.

In terms of results our current position in the league is absolutely awful, unexpected and rather worrying. There is no arguing about it - the table does not lie. But lets look at it in slightly broader terms. How many points have been dropped due to individual player mistakes (in all positions but defence in particular)? Can we blame Hughes for those mistakes? I don't think we can. With a tiny bit of more concentration from players in a number of games right now we would've been sitting comfortably in the top half of the table, looking forward to the transfer window and praising Hughes. Reaching the last 32 in Europe is a success. Rarely anyone remembers the teams that in the past were unlucky/lucky in the non-final stages of european competitions but most people do remember the winners. Hughes is on course in the UEFA cup. So to summarise I think that in terms of results and considering the timescales, and circumstances (team changes, injuries, costly player mistakes, ref decisions, etc.) Hughes passes the grade and deserves to continue as our manager (or at least be given time to prove himself).

Performance is something that I personally value highly. I enjoy watching good football. But lets get Sven out of the picture here. People talk about great Sven era in the first half of the season but don't they remember games like Derby, Manure, Villa, Sunderland and Reading where we probably had a combined total 10 shots on the opposition goal (okay exaggerating here - it certainly felt like it). I am not surprised that we were rumbled in the 2nd half of the season once our counter attacking football was sussed. But this season we were absolutely briliant to watch to start of with. Just look at Chelsea and Liverpool players and fans celebrating and you will realise how well we did in those games. Our away play was not as good but with a few tweaks it was not far of what we wanted. I loved every second of it. Let the other team worry about stopping us. However this has changed over the course of the season and we are geared towards worrying about stopping opposition playing no matter who they are. We no longer look like scoring, we can't even get a few passes together, the defenders are everywhere but where they should be, the midfielders are going missing, the attackers are not in the game - to summarise - we are not a team and the performances reflect that. This is where Hughes has not done well as he had a good starting position with a team that could play and has now ended up with something completely opposite. The team selections, tactical decisions and the training done are Hughes responsibility and these have had a direct reflection on the way team plays. Hughes has not done well here and does not really inspire any confidence for the future.

So to summarise please make some room for me on that fence as we try to find the right balance (see what I did there lol)

And I think that we should all remember that the managers change, the players change, the owners change, the stadiums change, etc. but the true fans of MCFC stay the same and once 11 players get on the pitch wearing the sky blue then we need to get behind them wholeheartedly no matter what. We can do the demos after the game.

p.s. what a great thread
 
warringtonmcfc said:
"At least top six"?! What do you base that assumption on?
I base it on the fact that we were ninth last season and later have added players for £80 million.
 
Simon to blame it on the talent of the squad is a bit silly. Pearce and Sven were in much better positions with far, far worse squads. He's taken a good, mid-table premiership side, added god knows how many millions of pounds to it and is performing far, far worse. At this time last season Sven had this squad of players minus a few world class stars and had them in 3rd place in the league. Whatever way you look at it Hughes is under performing in a major, major way.

The players themselves should take a look at themselves but the buck stops with the manager.
 
I like the way Hughes conducts himself, he always seems to give an honest summary to the match, and wont stand for any messing about.

Let him sort it out with him being able to bring players in he wants to bring in. Last season we had a great start to season but were lucky to

win some of the games and our table position made us look better than we really were. It's the opposite this season, only Chelsea and the

scum have beaten us at home without the ref sending someone off (forgot about Everton). Our away form is shite like last season because

we need some physically stronger players and are missing Johno and petrov. But i feel most of all we have been playing without a decent

striker for a few seasons.
 
barney8 said:
warringtonmcfc said:
"At least top six"?! What do you base that assumption on?
I base it on the fact that we were ninth last season and later have added players for £80 million.


But the other teams have moved on as well. We are behind the big four and Villa at the moment without a doubt. Therefore sixth is the best we can hope for. If he buys well we can still make that but anything more is beyond us for this season.
 
Results are poor, performances have become poorer recently. The manager's primary responsibility is to deliver results and performances in the short, medium and long term. It's only natural that as we are dissatisfied and looking for a way to turn things around, MH is subject to pretty severe criticism.

Personally, I welcomed his appointment. It seemed that he brought a talented team and a professional and committed approach. My initial concern was that he would find it difficult to translate the approach used at blackburn to our pool of players. That is still the major concern. Personally I think it reflects very poorly on some of our players that they do not appear to reach the standards required by the management team. Let us not forget that 20+ of the players in our squad are the same as last year, and most of them still display the same lack of courage and concentration that was responsible for us being a soft touch last year, and has cost us dear this season. I am also bitterly disappointed with Elano for his arrogance in assuming he should start every game, and the way he chose to express that. That Robinho appears to have been drawn into this is the most disheartening development of all. Steve Claridge summed up the situation nicely last night, when he said that certain players had far to much to say for themselves, that certain players went off the radar when we didn't have the ball, but that whilst results were poor MH would be well advised to go with the flow, and that he would not be able to impose himself on the dressing room until things got better.

Which brings us to MH's personal style. Ferguson, Clough, Shankly, all were/are autocratic charectors who used fear as an integral part of their management, but it is also true that they were very human, that players could relate to what drove them to be so harsh, and that they had a charisma of a sort. The two must work hand in hand. People do not relate to 'professionalism', they relate to courage, ambition, humour, realism. Has MH lost sight of this, perhaps he has been unable to show the required 'weakness' whilst results have been poor and his position has suffered?

The weakness of his position is exaggerated by the perception that the new owners could attract their choice of manager. Whilst this is debatable at length, the perception IS there.
If we look at the squad, the vast majority were not signed by MH, some will still feel alliegance to Sven, many will be extremely insecure in their futures at the club. In other words, few of them have any personal alliegance with MH. This situation may have been made worse by what may be callled the 'high-handed' approach MH used when he came to the club. David pleat pointed out that upon joining clubs, managers had to accept that every member of the squad and the staff were 'in it together'. Singling out or ostracising players is a poor strategy because it makes others in the squad think 'if he'll do that to X, what will he do to me?'. In other words, it breeds mistrust, and discourages individuals from allowing themselves become comitted to the manager's methods and ideas. Having said that, it appears to me that our squad was fractured and disfunctional when MH took over, he had ample reason to think that several players had to go immediately. Last years debacle with Sven only increased the questions over how committed some players could be to a new regime, and as if that were not enough, the new ownership has thrown the future of many players into doubt. Sulaiman's boastful promises of a dream team, and the signing of robinho being instigated without the managers say-so, must have unsettled young and established players equally, and compromised the managers percieved authority with regard to players joining, and leaving the club. This multiplies the difficulties in a situation where the obvious truth is that many players in the team and squad do not have a realistic future at the club, and have little to gain by allying themselves to the managerial team, and may indeed simply feel insecure and a bit depressed.

Perhaps more significant though is the situation with regards to Robinho. City need him, need his image, need his goals, need him to attract other good players. The fact that his 'best friend' may be held to exemplify the lack of professionalism and commitment that is the key problem at our club is a very troubling situation. Separating Elano and Robinho may indeed be the only option open to MH. Elano publicly attempted to undermine MH's authority by publicly saying that he owed it to 'the fans and the chairman' to express his unhappiness at not playing.

So, my conclusion is that MH's job is in fact most unenviable. We have no recent memory of success, or even a consistent approach, on which to match the ever increasing expectations of the fan base and media. He has been undermined in many ways from many different quarters, and with the recent run of poor results and league position, has lost the key elements to maintaining his authority.

This is a fearful situation. A new management team may indeed patch up some of the divisions within the squad, but some of factors leading to these problems go far outside of this. MH is young enough to learn from what has happened over the last few months, and his coaches are very highly regarded. In the medium term, this management team is a good bet.

As such, yhe best we can hope for is that the team wins enough points over christmas to remove the pressure, and that the squad is overhauled in the window, not only because it is obviously deficient in several areas, but because any new players will be naturally more secure in their futures, and committed to the people that brought them here. Even if Kaka and VIlla don't sign, we will be improved in many ways in the new year.

The worst scenario for me is that results go from bad to worse and that MH's position is fatally undermined before the end of the season. All of the managers likely to be available at that time come with question marks over experience (especially with regards to the premier league), or pedigree. Whilst they would benifit from not being associated with this difficult period, they would still face the same problems associated with trying to get a consistent level of performance from players who have not managed to do so in recent memory.

The major concern is that the political situation at the club could lead to players ruling the roost and undermining any manager when it suits them. This is exactly why money does not guarentee success, why Ferguson, Mourinho, Wegner, Benitez all rule their clubs autocratically with nearly total authority, why Inter Milan were hopless for years, why Real are always so disappointing. If MH goes too soon, this may be the path that our club is taking.

And whilst I too would welcome mourinho, is it not precisely this lack of control over transfers and player matters that led him to leave chelsea?
 
An interested post Bizzbo but you seem to be under the illusion that Hughes is capable of handling the pressure in addition to suddenly developing the man management skills needed to motivate the prima donnas that a rich club like ours will undoubtedly generate. Hughes may possibly learn these traits over a period of 12-18 months but should MCFC be the place for his education? It's frankly too risky. Better to have an older manager who has been through all this before, possibly keeping Hughes as his assistant if he has the ego to endure such a role. After all, we can now afford the best so why stick with a guy who is still learning his trade?
 

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