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nmc said:
It’s interesting how society deals with these types of issues. The slave trade, the Empire etc are all a stain on our past. Removing tge ship from the Manchester Coat of Arms won’t change anything! Instead history needs to be placed into context and our relationship with it needs to evolve. Theres no point in executing a cover up - the UK needs to come to terms with its past and accept responsibility for our ancestor’s actions. The statues of various despots who profited from the slave trade should not be in prominent places like they were in Bristol but they should be preserved in museums for people to learn from. The Germans could have bulldozed Dacau and pretended it was never there - but far better to preserve it and let us understand the horrors that took place there.
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Stop the world I want to get off
 
domalino said:
They didn’t use a ship, they used the Manchester coat of arms.

If it was a random ship, you could definitely argue it’s got nothing to do with the Manchester coat of arms, but they literally copied the coat of arms exactly.

Obviously ships can mean lots of things, and they can represent lots of things, but a ship put on a crest in 1840 can’t represent a canal that wouldn’t be built for 50 years.
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That's purely a design perception though. Lots of things look a lot like lots of other things. I'm not being facetious here, that is so damn common.

Do you not see how it is a stretch to argue one ship alone symbolises slavery, let alone multipple other similar ships. 50 odd years later on a badge for a completely different use, and that can only symbolise the same thing? And then one drawn in 2016 is still that very first one and means the exact same thing? Give me a break.

If you really think that, fair enough, be as prescriptive and as narrow minded as you want to. But you don't get to claim it is in any way whatsoever conclusive, because it is just not.
 
Coatigan said:
That's purely a design perception though. Lots of things look a lot like lots of other things. I'm not being facetious here, that is so damn common.

Do you not see how it is a stretch to argue one ship alone symbolises slavery, let alone multipple other similar ships. 50 odd years later on a badge for a completely different use, and that can only symbolise the same thing? And then one drawn in 2016 is still that very first one and means the exact same thing? Give me a break.

If you really think that, fair enough, be as prescriptive and as narrow minded as you want to. But you don't get to claim it is in any way whatsoever conclusive, because it is just not.
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I haven’t argued it represents slavery! Not once!

I pointed out it doesn’t represent the ship canal built 50 years after the ship was adopted, and argued you can’t copy and paste a crest and then decide the elements in your identical logo mean something different to the original.
 
domalino said:
They didn’t use a ship, they used the Manchester coat of arms.

If it was a random ship, you could definitely argue it’s got nothing to do with the Manchester coat of arms, but they literally copied the coat of arms exactly.

Obviously ships can mean lots of things, and they can represent lots of things, but a ship put on a crest in 1840 can’t represent a canal that wouldn’t be built for 50 years.
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In the 1840s Manchester already had designs on becoming a port using the network of canals built in the 18th Century, this from 1844 ...

FIRST ARRIVAL IN THE PORT OF MANCHESTER OF A CARGO OF GOODS FOR BOND
We have great pleasure in recording the first arrival in the Port of Manchester of a vessel, with an entire cargo of wines and spirits removed in bond, and for bonding in Manchester. The vessel, a flat named the Express, was wholly laden with a valuable cargo of wines and spirits, in all about 40 tons weight, belonging to Mr. William Gibb, spirit merchant, of this town, whose active and long-continued exertions in the struggle to obtain the privilege of bonding for this great and important borough are about to be acknowledged in the form of a substantial mark of respect and gratitude by his fellow-townsmen. The Express arrived from Liverpool on Saturday evening; but it was yesterday morning before she began to unload. She is lying in the Bridgewater Canal, Knott Mill where the Duke's trustees have constructed a large bonding vault, which Mr. Gibb has taken and had licensed for the purpose, and we believe he is now removing his stock of wine and spirits from other ports to Manchester, for the greater convenience of sampling and sale. The lockers, gaugers, and other officers of Customs were in attendance, superintending the unloading of the vessel and thus have commenced the operations of the Manchester Custom-house. It is a gratifying circumstance that a gentleman who took so prominent a part in the struggle to obtain the boon of bonding for Manchester should be the first to enjoy the fruits of its success. We hope ere long to record the general operation of the system; though it will require a little time, perhaps, as it must have a beginning.

— Manchester Guardian

The ship was added to the CoA to simply represent trade and the city's desire to be seen as a port but this idea proved to be a bit of a failure at first with trade lost to the new railways and the canal needing several upgrades over the next 50 years to encourage cargo onto it. It was 1894 before the city became a successful port.
 
Citizen of Legoland said:
In the 1840s Manchester already had designs on becoming a port using the network of canals built in the 18th Century, this from 1844 ...

FIRST ARRIVAL IN THE PORT OF MANCHESTER OF A CARGO OF GOODS FOR BOND
We have great pleasure in recording the first arrival in the Port of Manchester of a vessel, with an entire cargo of wines and spirits removed in bond, and for bonding in Manchester. The vessel, a flat named the Express, was wholly laden with a valuable cargo of wines and spirits, in all about 40 tons weight, belonging to Mr. William Gibb, spirit merchant, of this town, whose active and long-continued exertions in the struggle to obtain the privilege of bonding for this great and important borough are about to be acknowledged in the form of a substantial mark of respect and gratitude by his fellow-townsmen. The Express arrived from Liverpool on Saturday evening; but it was yesterday morning before she began to unload. She is lying in the Bridgewater Canal, Knott Mill where the Duke's trustees have constructed a large bonding vault, which Mr. Gibb has taken and had licensed for the purpose, and we believe he is now removing his stock of wine and spirits from other ports to Manchester, for the greater convenience of sampling and sale. The lockers, gaugers, and other officers of Customs were in attendance, superintending the unloading of the vessel and thus have commenced the operations of the Manchester Custom-house. It is a gratifying circumstance that a gentleman who took so prominent a part in the struggle to obtain the boon of bonding for Manchester should be the first to enjoy the fruits of its success. We hope ere long to record the general operation of the system; though it will require a little time, perhaps, as it must have a beginning.

— Manchester Guardian

The ship was added to the CoA to simply represent trade and the city's desire to be seen as a port but this idea proved to be a bit of a failure at first with trade lost to the new railways and the canal needing several upgrades over the next 50 years to encourage cargo onto it. It was 1894 before the city became a successful port.
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That’s interesting stuff, put it in an email to Hattenstone (seriously, this whole debate was kicked off by a letter to the editor)
 
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