Our Badge

[Coatigan]

I haven’t argued it represents slavery! Not once!

I pointed out it doesn’t represent the ship canal built 50 years after the ship was adopted, and argued you can’t copy and paste a crest and then decide the elements in your identical logo mean something different to the original.

Fair, but no you argued it is conclusive that the ship on the club badge doesn't represent the canal, because the coat of arms came before the canal. Despite what many academics have written about the club and its history and that of its badges.

You can indeed copy and paste a symbol, a motif, a word, a phrase, or even a whole design and have it symbolise something else. Literally happens all the time, and always will. And exactly what something means and why, will never be totally conclusive.

If it was, the article and the claim in it based on his interpretation, would never have been able to have been written.

 

[SebastianBlue]

It does make it very difficult to have a conversation about the merits, or lack thereof, of an article when half the people arguing haven’t read it but are really angry about it.

I’ve never seen a more succinct description of social media.

 

[eyalluvitt]

“Manchester City are to face over 100
Charges of having a racially insensitive badge with a possible PL points deduction and CL expulsion to follow”

 

[bluesince76]

Glad that Lincoln finally got a mention in the article. The ship on both club crests clearly links to Manchester and the Manchester one clearly links to the cotton trade - note, cotton trade, not slave trade despite the links between the two. Cottonopolis was clearly shouting its importance without perhaps considering the implications for others, a bit like everyone who read the article on an iPhone (or any other phone, in reality) can't truly claim to be concerned about the plight of the people making it.

I used to work next to Lincoln Square and that statue and the reason behind it (even if convoluted) is something ever Mancunian should be proud of - that ordinary people stood together with the rights of the slaves in the southern states, despite the hardship the Civil War was causing.

There has to be a recognition that history happened, and, with our current morals, it's often things most wouldn't agree with now. Manchester is full of swastikas but from a time when they had a very different meaning to anyone seeing them, but it would be wrong to add one now, yet we don't see Latin mottos and wonder what happened to the locals when the Roman's arrived. The original ship on the Manchester crest did celebrate cotton and that could have connotations, but maybe it's time for Manchester to reclaim it as our symbol of unity, inclusion and support, remembering those who stood against the impact of what it was originally celebrating.

 

[Wienerwald]

Absolutely agree.

I would likely be classed as “woke” by many on here, as I fervently believe we still haven’t fully come to terms with the vast darkness of our history and the very real consequences of it still playing out around the world today (see what is happening in Sudan and Israel/Palestine right now for but two examples). Nor have we done much in the way of atoning for the sins of our fathers. That doesn’t mean condemning those alive today for what their ancestors did, but it does mean earnestly studying the harm our country has done over the centuries, especially in the name of empire, acknowledging that our relative wealth and political dominance today is largely due to heinous actions and insidious exploitation, and coming to terms with the exploitation and subjugation still existing today (evolved from the historical policies and actions of those that came before us), which underpin our socioeconomic and political structures, and our very way of life.

But even I think removing the ship from our, United’s, or any else crest/logo is wholly misguided. It serves to achieve none of the goals I outline above. If anything, as you allude to above, it only serves to further obfuscate our past. And beyond that, a sailing ship was used by a great many people in our culture and elsewhere for things completely unrelated to slavery, colonialism, and war. If we scrubbed all symbols that had some connection with those detestable actions we would scarcely have much left to use for any purpose.

Whilst I appreciate this blue’s work to highlight the role slavery and colonialism played in Manchester’s history (something we still need to explore more), removing the ship on the badge is not going to change anything. In fact, I think leaving it does more good.

This is an excellent post.
I have always taken a certain amount of Manc pride - from our forebears support of the anti-slavery North during the American civil war.

From the archive: 1863, Lincoln's great debt to Manchester

In 1863, The US President wrote to the 'working men of Manchester' thanking them for their anti-slavery stance

www.theguardian.com

 

[horlock_was_super]

I think Haaland should be playing for free in retribution for the raping and pillaging undertaken by his ancestors

He is. rags and dippers though think he earns £1 million a week and it's all paid offshore.

 

[horlock_was_super]

In the 1840s Manchester already had designs on becoming a port using the network of canals built in the 18th Century, this from 1844 ...

FIRST ARRIVAL IN THE PORT OF MANCHESTER OF A CARGO OF GOODS FOR BOND
We have great pleasure in recording the first arrival in the Port of Manchester of a vessel, with an entire cargo of wines and spirits removed in bond, and for bonding in Manchester. The vessel, a flat named the Express, was wholly laden with a valuable cargo of wines and spirits, in all about 40 tons weight, belonging to Mr. William Gibb, spirit merchant, of this town, whose active and long-continued exertions in the struggle to obtain the privilege of bonding for this great and important borough are about to be acknowledged in the form of a substantial mark of respect and gratitude by his fellow-townsmen. The Express arrived from Liverpool on Saturday evening; but it was yesterday morning before she began to unload. She is lying in the Bridgewater Canal, Knott Mill where the Duke's trustees have constructed a large bonding vault, which Mr. Gibb has taken and had licensed for the purpose, and we believe he is now removing his stock of wine and spirits from other ports to Manchester, for the greater convenience of sampling and sale. The lockers, gaugers, and other officers of Customs were in attendance, superintending the unloading of the vessel and thus have commenced the operations of the Manchester Custom-house. It is a gratifying circumstance that a gentleman who took so prominent a part in the struggle to obtain the boon of bonding for Manchester should be the first to enjoy the fruits of its success. We hope ere long to record the general operation of the system; though it will require a little time, perhaps, as it must have a beginning.

— Manchester Guardian

The ship was added to the CoA to simply represent trade and the city's desire to be seen as a port but this idea proved to be a bit of a failure at first with trade lost to the new railways and the canal needing several upgrades over the next 50 years to encourage cargo onto it. It was 1894 before the city became a successful port.

That was a very fine year indeed.

 

[cheekybids]

Has the Red Rose been linked to the mass murder of the French yet?

Yorkshire Bastards

 

[SebastianBlue]

This is an excellent post.
I have always taken a certain amount of Manc pride - from our forebears support of the anti-slavery North during the American civil war.

From the archive: 1863, Lincoln's great debt to Manchester

In 1863, The US President wrote to the 'working men of Manchester' thanking them for their anti-slavery stance

www.theguardian.com

Hear, hear.

Part of learning our history is learning about the positive (often very difficult) steps we have taken to right wrongs, sometimes at great sacrifice. That helps model how we can do it today.

And Manchester has had many instances of fighting inequity, exploitation, and corruption (in it’s many forms). We aren’t squeaky clean, either, which is why it is so important to study and acknowledge all of our history, not just the bits that make us feel good about ourselves or acting as if the bad bits never happened.

After all, we aren’t the Dippers!

 

[paulchapo]

Fucking hell what next? Why don't these miserable wankers just fuck off. This cunts supposed to be a Blue?? With friends like that who needs enemies? It's a fucking ship. Ships didn't just carry slaves. You can look at every single thing and someone could find something racist/sexist/immoral or offensive to them. What next, ban a ship because it traumatises some milk sop who gets seasick and it triggers flashbacks from a trip they did in rough weather sailing to France on a school trip? Fuck off and then when you get there fuck off some more!