we have two of the beszt centre midfielders in the leaguewith nasri and silva so why does he keep playing them out wide? there not wingers causing them to come insdie to barry and toure who lose the ball allowing other teams to just counter us i.e. what napoli did, we need de jong in behind silva and nasri in the middle play yaya further forwardx where he doesnt need to track back and either edin or aguero up top
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Our Centre Mids
- Thread starter Robinho's Subbuteo
- Start date
johnmc said:Lets go through the top teams in europe if you want and see how many players are similar and one dimesional as De Jong.
Are you Sabster in disguise?
Once again do I need to raise the Makelele argument? He was what you'd call one dimensional at Chelsea and was arguably the most important player in their team that dominated English football.
And De Jong really isn't as one dimensional as the myth that has been created. It is a conscious tactical decision to have him sat deep, he is actually quite skillful with the ball and used to play as a winger at Ajax. How many runs from Yaya Toure have you noticed lately? Next to none for the same reason, he has been told to be disciplined and stay in a certain area doing dirty work (which he hasn't done as well as De Jong, contributing to our complete lack of defensive discipline this season). With four attacking players it is more clear than ever that we need at least one specialist holding player as our defence against Napoli, Fulham, Bayern (the first games they were really given a sustained test) and even Bolton (2 chances, 2 goals was it?) looked half as good as last season with practically the same personnel but less protection in front of them.
johnmc
Well-Known Member
LoveCity said:johnmc said:Lets go through the top teams in europe if you want and see how many players are similar and one dimesional as De Jong.
Are you Sabster in disguise?
Once again do I need to raise the Makelele argument? He was what you'd call one dimensional at Chelsea and was arguably the most important player in their team that dominated English football.
And De Jong really isn't as one dimensional as the myth that has been created. It is a conscious tactical decision to have him sat deep, he is actually quite skillful with the ball and used to play as a winger at Ajax. How many runs from Yaya Toure have you noticed lately? Next to none for the same reason, he has been told to be disciplined and stay in a certain area doing dirty work (which he hasn't done as well as De Jong, contributing to our complete lack of defensive discipline this season). With four attacking players it is more clear than ever that we need at least one specialist holding player as our defence against Napoli, Fulham, Bayern (the first games they were really given a sustained test) and even Bolton (2 chances, 2 goals was it?) looked half as good as last season with practically the same personnel but less protection in front of them.
No I am not.
The Makalele argument is totally flawed - for one that was a different era. You cannot compare the league now to 6-8 years ago when Makalele was in his pomp. And added to this if you are saying De Jong is in Makalele league then I'm sorry I think you are incorrect.
Can you tell me the defensive midfielders for Bayern, United, Chelsea, Barca, Real, Inter and AC please.
If De Jong isnt one dimensional then he need to show it a bit more - you cite Yaya and how he hasnt made as many runs at the minute but that proves my point - he isnt one dimensional and has done more than one job. Why hasnt De Jong been asked to do this if he has that in his locker?
Our complete lack of defensive discipline?? For starters De Jong is a midfielder therefore if we have a lack of defenisve discipline we need to look at the defence first. Are you saying that Kompany was made to look good last season by De Jong and his dip in form is down to De Jong playing? So is Kompany reliant on De Jong then or could it be the defence isnt is as good a form. We are playing a totally different style of play than last season - if you cant see that then I dont know what to say. We are more open at the back purely because we are playing a more expansive game. I guarantee if De Jong is in the team and we win 3-2 it would be the fault of the system or the defence and never De Jongs.
No one was citing a lack of defensive discipline prior to the Fulham game. Its impossible to say De Jong would have prevented that happening just as it is impossible to say we would have been up 2-0 if he played in the first place. You have mentioned the Bolton game but a great goal from a super Petrov delivery and a Davies header from a feree kick do not point to a lack of defensive discipline. If we concede any goal without De Jong in the team everyone on here believes it wouldnt happen if he was on the pitch which is simply not true.
johnmc
Well-Known Member
bluethai said:Mancini's narrow formation always has big problem against the team playing direct/wide with fast wingers style.
Thats a very good point - the Makalele Chelsea side had Robben and Duff providing genuine width and pace (granted Duff wasnt great but was very good for a year or two) plus in Lampard a true goalscoring midfielder who had licence to go play as an attacking midfielder.
We have no genuine width, we have Nasri and Silva who could play the goalscoring midfielder roles but arent being utilised that way.
johnmc said:The Makalele argument is totally flawed - for one that was a different era. You cannot compare the league now to 6-8 years ago when Makalele was in his pomp.
Yes I can because the Premier League is still a high tempo attacking league where its naive not to have a good defensive setup (and I don't mean just the back four, its clear by our defensive performances already this season that isn't enough).
And added to this if you are saying De Jong is in Makalele league then I'm sorry I think you are incorrect.
No one is as good as Makelele in this role and for that very reason its called the Makelele position. But De Jong is the best thing in this role in the league since then.
Can you tell me the defensive midfielders for Bayern, United, Chelsea, Barca, Real, Inter and AC please.
Did you not see Luis Gustavo for Bayern the other day breaking up play? He is just like De Jong, a defensive midfielder who was actually converted to that role from being a defender.
United have Carrick who is not as good at his defensive duties as De Jong but United have been lucky enough to have two first class CBs in Vidic and Ferdinand to compensate for that - but still let in more goals than us last season. And United have had more shots against them than any other team in the league this season according to OptaStats. There is concern amongst their fans, a lot of whom seem to think they need a better holding midfielder.
AC Milan have van Bommel, an inferior version of De Jong, as well as Gattuso.
Real Madrid have Lass Diarra and also use Pepe (a defender) in the role at times to break up play.
Barcelona have Busquets but obviously do not really need a strictly holding midfielder for most games as they are the best possession team club football has ever seen. It also helps when they and Real play teams like Vallecano who charge like idiots at them and get shown up. If we were in La Liga we'd need less protection for our backline (except against teams like Valencia) but as the Fulham game showed, we do need it.
If De Jong isnt one dimensional then he need to show it a bit more - you cite Yaya and how he hasnt made as many runs at the minute but that proves my point - he isnt one dimensional and has done more than one job. Why hasnt De Jong been asked to do this if he has that in his locker?
Simple - because he is the very best around at what he is doing now. We had the joint strongest defensive setup in the league last season and yet we didn't have the best back four, much of that is down to De Jong (and also Barry) protecting them so well. There was a game last season, I think the game where De Jong scored, when he started becoming ambitious and pushing forward - and looked fine. But then suddenly there seemed to be gaps where he'd normally be that left us looking frail at the back, because he'd for the first time I can remember lost his tactical discipline and left us exposed in the area he marshals so well.
You might as well ask "Why doesn't Aguero go and defend?", it'd negate his strongest quality to have him change roles - he is the best at breaking up play and giving it to someone like Silva or Nasri to do what they do. De Jong was trained in "total football" and is very comfortable on the ball, if he was told to go forward more he'd probably do a fair job but he isn't for the reason I just mentioned - it'd negate his best quality of protecting the backline, just like Aguero going back to defend would negate his best quality and leave an empty space up front.
Our complete lack of defensive discipline?? For starters De Jong is a midfielder therefore if we have a lack of defenisve discipline we need to look at the defence first. Are you saying that Kompany was made to look good last season by De Jong and his dip in form is down to De Jong playing?
I am not sure but we've played the exact same back four this season besides Clichy for Kolarov (and Clichy is better) and at times have been flapping like we did under Hughes, so perhaps our back four are not as good as we thought and the protection they got last season made them seem better than they are.
It was the same last season when De Jong was injured or rested (ie. vs. Liverpool when we got battered), our steely defensive setup suddenly looked nervous and uncomfortable. To me it is very clear that Kompany and Lescott feel a lot more comfortable with a good anchorman in front of them. De Jong also rarely makes mistakes when he has the ball unlike Barry, who cost us a goal against Napoli and should have cost us a goal against Bayern if they hadn't missed that sitter from a few yards out. I can't remember De Jong ever losing the ball in a situation that led to a goal (or a near goal), especially in such important matches.
No one was citing a lack of defensive discipline prior to the Fulham game.
Actually they did - the Bolton game. We should have thrashed them but in the end it finished 3-2 with Bolton having two or three chances and scoring two goals.
Fulham was the first midfield really up for it in the league and it showed in the second half, they even had a 19-year-old green boy called Kasami who was too good for us in that half.
De Jong might not be essential when we play a naive team like Norwich or Swansea, or a team that just plans to park the bus like Everton did, but it is clear that the PL has many fiesty midfields who will overrun us just like Fulham did in the second half, like Napoli did at times in the second half, and like Bayern did with ridiculous ease the other day. It has been jaw-dropping how much free space there has been in the area De Jong and Barry would normally have had a tight leash on things last season. Look at Gomez's first goal and the space Ribery had to get the shot in that Hart parried and Gomez poached - Ribery wasn't pressured in any way because Yaya was gasping somewhere and Barry was nowhere to be found. Neither has that dogged determination to chase, intimidate, and harry players like De Jong does.
Our midfielders that play now , are not suited to playing as box to box players as we deploy them now. Yaya hasn't got the stamina and if Barry is caught up field , he is purely too slow to get back. I expect Mancini to persist with the 2 midfielders but evtnaully he will revert back to the 3 in the middle , it is inevitable.
johnmc
Well-Known Member
LoveCity said:Can you tell me the defensive midfielders for Bayern, United, Chelsea, Barca, Real, Inter and AC please.
Did you not see Luis Gustavo for Bayern the other day breaking up play? He is just like De Jong, a defensive midfielder who was actually converted to that role from being a defender.
United have Carrick who is not as good at his defensive duties as De Jong but United have been lucky enough to have two first class CBs in Vidic and Ferdinand to compensate for that - but still let in more goals than us last season. And United have had more shots against them than any other team in the league this season according to OptaStats. There is concern amongst their fans, a lot of whom seem to think they need a better holding midfielder.
AC Milan have van Bommel, an inferior version of De Jong, as well as Gattuso.
Real Madrid have Lass Diarra and also use Pepe (a defender) in the role at times to break up play.
Barcelona have Busquets but obviously do not really need a strictly holding midfielder for most games as they are the best possession team club football has ever seen. It also helps when they and Real play teams like Vallecano who charge like idiots at them and get shown up. If we were in La Liga we'd need less protection for our backline (except against teams like Valencia) but as the Fulham game showed, we do need it.
I wouldnt class Gustavo as the same type of player as De Jong - more strings to his bow.
Carricks game is more about his passing
Van Bommell again is a different type of player and also De Jongs captain for the dutch team - he has a range of passing and a bit more of an eye for goal. Gattuso is a similar but much more high tempo for me. He seems to be a real driving force at times as well as a stopper. He is someone who I think is more highly rated than he should be but thats my opinion - obviously playing for so long at Milan he must be a good player.
As fair as I was aware Diarra is a bit part player nowadays?
Love_Each_Day
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I find it strange that Mancini rotates the full backs and forwards to keep them fresh but Barry and Toure play every game when they are the ones most badly affected by playing lots of games in quick succession. I know Milner and de Jong have been injured but I wouldn't be surprised to see Barry and Toure both start against Blackburn, despite both looking tired and slow against Bayern. I also think Milner would be well suited to playing as one of the middle two in our current formation with the high workload demanded of it and hope he is given a chance there soon.