PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

I think it's more likely they didn't ask for information post 2018. God knows why, though .....

On the other hand, if I was really trying to understand anything the PL was doing, I would be going crazy.

If they didn't, how can they then charge for non-cooperation after 2018?

Unless I'm misunderstanding surely it's because the investigation started then?

As above, then there can be no 5th (group) charge, really. They must have asked and not bren given, for that to have any chance of sticking.

I thought ii) was obvious but that may just be me ;)

They'd have been having to amend the charges year on year otherwise which is why I do have a slight concern on what happens with 2018 onwards if we are found guilty of anything besides non-cooperation.

Surely if we are found guilty of non-cooperation beyond 2018, that in itself also opens up the prospect of further investigation into the period after that. It is a mess either way.
 
I thought ii) was obvious but that may just be me ;)

They'd have been having to amend the charges year on year otherwise which is why I do have a slight concern on what happens with 2018 onwards if we are found guilty of anything besides non-cooperation.

They could have investigated all periods until the allegations were referred to the disciplinary panel.

When I was involved with these things, we always looked at everything to do with the matter being investigated as close to the report date as possible. For two reasons: first, stopping and starting investigations is time consuming and administratively difficult. Once you are "in the door", you don't want to leave before you have to; secondly, you may find something in the last year, month or week that either brings to light some malfeasance or provides some additional evidence of the suspected malpractice.

All imho, of course.
 
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If they didn't, how can they then charge for non-cooperation after 2018?

The investigation started in 2018 and finished in 2023. They are saying the club didn't fully comply at any stage of the investigation (there was no investigation before 2018 not to have complied with ....)

As above, then there can be no 5th (group) charge, really. They must have asked and not bren given, for that to have any chance of sticking.

The PL can believe that they had a right under the rules to some information that wasn't provided (ie non-cooperation) at the same time as the club thinks it has provided all the information that it is required to by the rules (ie fully complied).

Surely if we are found guilty of non-cooperation beyond 2018, that in itself also opens up the prospect of further investigation into the period after that. It is a mess either way.

We can agree it's a mess, and yes, if any of the pre-2018 allegations are proven, they could look at the additional years through to the current year whether the non-cooperation allegation sticks or not.

All imho.
 
The investigation started in 2018 and finished in 2023. They are saying the club didn't fully comply at any stage of the investigation (there was no investigation before 2018 not to have complied with ....)



The PL can believe that they had a right under the rules to some information that wasn't provided (ie non-cooperation) at the same time as the club thinks it has provided all the information that it is required to by the rules (ie fully complied).



We can agree it's a mess, and yes, if any of the pre-2018 allegations are proven, they could look at the additional years through to the current year whether the non-cooperation allegation sticks or not.

All imho.

That makes sense. The non cooperation charge is for the whole period of the investigation. But from what has been written so far, that view seems based on the club not providing accounts beyond 2018. They would argue they cooperated fully with accounts up to that point, the PL will argue they didn't, because they didn't provide all accounts asked for. That at least seems to be one theory, could be to do with the extent as much as the time period, and as you keep saying, third party information.
 
That makes sense. The non cooperation charge is for the whole period of the investigation. But from what has been written so far, that view seems based on the club not providing accounts beyond 2018. They would argue they cooperated fully with accounts up to that point, the PL will argue they didn't, because they didn't provide all accounts asked for. That at least seems to be one theory, could be to do with the extent as much as the time period, and as you keep saying, third party information.
Ahh, now I can see why I'm not understanding some posts :(
 
Probably so they can charge us again when they fail with the first 115 charges.

Naah. The only allegations which relate to matters continuing after 2018 are those relating to sponsorship and if they can't prove those for the years 2009-2018 (which, in my very strong opinion they won't be able to) they won't have a reason to look further.
 
Naah. The only allegations which relate to matters continuing after 2018 are those relating to sponsorship and if they can't prove those for the years 2009-2018 (which, in my very strong opinion they won't be able to) they won't have a reason to look further.
It was more said in jest but I wouldn’t be shocked if they tried again in some way.
 
I have never really understood the change that was made it never made any sense to me can you please explain
I'll try.

FFP was originally introduced in 2010, to take effect for the first time from 2011/12. But clubs were concerned that player contracts entered into prior to 2010 could impact their FFP assessment even though they were unaware of the FFP rules at the time. UEFA therefore introduced a temporary rule that, in principle, clubs failing FFP in the initial two assessment periods wouldn't be sanctioned if they could show that their failure was solely a result of wages paid under contracts signed prior to June 2010.

As part of that arrangement, they set out in their FFP toolkit, which clubs had to follow, how to work out whether that was the case or not. The first assessment period covered 2011/12 and 2012/13 and there were three parts to the test, all of which had to be met to claim mitigation. One of those three related solely to the 2011/12 season and if you couldn't meet that, then you couldn't claim that mitigation, regardless of your financial results in 2012/13.

The initial test for 2011/12 was quite complicated, more than it needed to be, but we passed it and therefore could go on to test the other two conditions. I worked out at the time that we needed to show losses under £55m in 2012/13 to fully comply with the three tests. Thanks to the £24.5m from Fordham, we looked like we'd done that but for 2012/13, UEFA changed the part of the test that applied solely to 2011/12 just after we published our 2011/12 accounts, but that was in March or April 2013, well after our June 2012 year-end, so there was nothing we could do.

The revised test was actually much simpler and more logical, involving (if I remember correctly) simply deducting the applicable wage total from the net loss and seeing if the adjusted figure was a net profit. If it was, you were OK. However we were now on the wrong side of it compared to the original test and therefore couldn't claim mitigation.

Khaldoon mentioned in his statement, after it was revealed we'd failed FFP and were being sanctioned, the the issue was about the treatment of those pre-June 2010 wages. That's what made me go back and check the relevant rules, which is how I saw there'd been a change and was able to work out, based on the figures I had, that it was only a matter of £2-3m either way but on the new test we were the wrong side.

You can argue about the motive or morality of changing something after the chance to comply had passed by a few months. I compared it to driving on a road that had a 30mph limit on Friday, staying within the speed limit but then being told you were being prosecuted because they'd changed it to 20mph on Saturday. If we'd taken UEFA to court, I suspect that's the sort of argument we'd have used (although in a rather more sophisticated way).
 

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