PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Hard to object to anything Stefan said about the APT cases on TS.
Thought Stefan was good on TS. He made the point that so many of these issues should have resolved by negotiation not legal cases and that the battle had likely become personal for Masters. I believe Masters has been a disaster whose character has driven much of the chaos.
 
For what its worth, this is one of my "notes to self'" I wrote a while ago to get my head straight, based on the various contributions on here. I included the part about fraud as you seem to doubt the seriousness of the case. Ignore it and skip to the second part if I am wrong about that. It's long, but you asked .....

"Are these allegations of fraud?

The alleged rule breaches do not specifically refer to fraud or fraudulent behaviour, but it is generally understood that the combination of allegations around filing of accounts that don’t give a true and fair view, disguising equity as sponsorship and acting in bad faith, are effectively an accusation of fraud.

Let’s not forget that, before it was overturned by CAS, UEFA found the club guilty of improperly reporting, in the club’s audited accounts and various financial submissions to them, the source of around GBP 50 million annually by presenting it as income that could legitimately be expended under the FFP rules on transfers and player wages, among other things, when those funds in fact (according to UEFA, constituted owner investment that couldn't be spent on those items under the rules.

That UEFA made such a determination is there in black and white in the CAS award. The club certainly considered that the allegations were tantamount to accusations of fraud: The club said in its submission to CAS:
“The Adjudicatory Chamber found that ADUG entered into “arrangements” and/or a “scheme” to make payments to Etisalat and Etihad that were, in fact, “disguised equity payments”. The true nature of these payments is said to have been deliberately concealed and improperly reported by MCFC under the CLFFPR. These very serious allegations necessarily involve a conspiracy on the part of MCFC, its shareholder and these two sponsors [emphasis in the original]”.

As for UEFA's view on the matter, they stated that MCFC's conduct constituted:
"a series of very serious breaches, over [a four-year period] which were committed intentionally and concealed from the CFCB. The seriousness of these breaches is compounded by (.....) putting forward a case that ADUG know to be misleading.

So they outright accused the club of systematic, dishonest conduct, and of lying about that conduct in an attempt "to circumvent the objectives of [UEFA's FFP] Regulations".

The PL allegations, as far as anyone can judge from information in the public domain, repeated the accusation. In particular, the PL's statement of allegations included:
“In respect of each of Seasons 2009/10 to 2017/18 inclusive, the Premier League Rules applicable in those seasons that required provision by a member club to the Premier League, in the utmost good faith, of accurate financial information that gives a true and fair view of the club’s financial position, in particular with respect to its revenue (including sponsorship revenue)”.

The references in that accusation to the duty to act "in the utmost good faith" and to produce financial information giving a "true and fair view" in addition to the specific mention of "sponsorship revenue" suggests that the PL's charge is exactly the same as UEFA's in this regard. Those formulations really don't lend themselves to any other credible interpretation.

Now, this is good and bad. It is bad for the club, because if the PL can prove the most serious allegations then that is very, very serious and the consequences in terms of sanction will be very severe for the club and, possibly, eventually for the individuals involved. On the other hand, it is good for the club because it raises the level of cogency of the evidence required by the PL to prove their allegations. As discussed previously, there is an acceptance that, generally speaking, people are inherently honest and do not generally engage in fraudulent behaviour and so, to prove such behaviour, the evidence would have to be far more cogent than in proving, for example, a mistake or an omission.

The CAS panel said:
“The panel adheres to the reasoning (.....) that, considering the particularly serious nature of the allegations in the present proceedings, the evidence supporting such allegations must be particularly cogent”.

Again, it is unlikely the PL panel will have had a different view.

If these are allegations of fraud, why hasn’t HMRC and the SFO started an investigation?

The above leads to another point often raised by City fans: if the PL’s allegations effectively represent allegations of fraud, why are authorities such as HMRC and the Serious Fraud Office not investigating the club?

Firstly, this is a civil case concerning breach of the contract between the PL and the club. There are many considerations at play in terms of what criminal investigatory bodies do and don't investigate, of course, but it would be very unusual for (say) the Serious Fraud Office to commence a criminal investigation in a case like this where what is alleged is a breach of the PL’s internal rules. Especially when there has previously been a case before CAS which has rejected the most serious claims because there was no evidence of any wrong-doing. I would hope HMRC and the SFO have better things to do than launch investigations on a whim. Both organisations can effectively just sit back and wait for the PL to do their preliminary work for them.

If none of the most serious allegations are proven to the standard required in a civil case it would be impossible to meet the standard of proof in a criminal case, which is much higher, of course (beyond a reasonable doubt).

If any of the most serious charges are proven, it is quite possible that a criminal investigation would be launched. Given how high-profile this case is, one can imagine a scenario where it would be difficult for the SFO to resist the pressure to launch such an investigation. However, the standard of proof in a criminal case and the age of some of the charges mean that it would be very difficult to persuade a jury that the accounts signed off up to 16 years ago were knowingly and fraudulently mis-stated. Moreover, if the PL were able to prove their most serious allegations it is almost inevitable that there would be an appeal, which would mean that the events in question would be even more historic. You can never say never in legal matters, but criminal charges seem very, very unlikely even if the PL allegations are successful. Which, as I have stated many times before for the many reasons set out here, I don't think there is the slightest likelihood they will be."



I am no lawyer and this includes just a little original thought, most having been summarised from people better qualified on here. But I think it sums up the discussions of knowledgeable posters reasonably well. I'm not really interested in a debate about the content. If you disagree with anything, knock yourself out.
That all makes perfect sense I think I have seen you or Stefan or someone post similar.

My point was not that they are not serious charges amounting to fraud. I think they are

It’s that it doesn’t make sense that there has not been an investigation by the proper authorities.

I don’t think they would let the premier league or UEFA do their job for them. More chance if City are guilty of covering up the evidence or the Premier League messing it up plus. Would rival fans and the media let them ? I feel sure we have had members of the public with a dislike of certain politicians ring the police on minor Covid or other breaches scuffles at events nasty Twitter exchanges etc.

Are you telling me Liverpool United etc fans Deloon etc have not made enough complaints to warrant an investigation leaving aside the fact it’s all very public and they look bad anyway. Stefan and Deloon have used the word fraud for example.

Still think we as fans should be ringing the police on LFC for hacking.

I would also have thought that the governing bodies would have to report anything that might be criminal be it morally or legally or just to cover there back.

My theory is that the accusations are of fraud but everyone knows there is nothing to see.
 
Hard to object to anything Stefan said about the APT cases on TS.
By suggesting City will appeal any adverse 115 decision without mentioning the possibility of the PL appealing any decision in City’s favour, I thought he lacked a bit of balance.

If there is no possibility of the PL appealing, I apologise to Stefan and thought he did a good job of explaining things.
 
Thought Stefan was good on TS. He made the point that so many of these issues should have resolved by negotiation not legal cases and that the battle had likely become personal for Masters. I believe Masters has been a disaster whose character has driven much of the chaos.
Spot on mate. I hope Masters” masters force him to get around the negotiating table with us to find an agreement on APTs. They are undermining the Prem and giving a leg up to rival leagues.

There is mutual loathing between Masters and us. The Prem needs a much higher calibre leader.
 
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Spot on mate. I hope Masters” masters force him to get around the negotiating table with us to find an agreement on APTs. They are undermining the
Prem and giving a leg up to rival leagues.

There is mutual loathing between Masters and us. The Prem needs a much higher calibre leader.
Masters appearance at the first Select Comittee was pitiful (he did better at the second one). He was fifth choice for the job and has nothing on his CV that qualifies him for that role. He is the problem at the heart of football. He is too weak and has been influenced by a clique of Club Directors.
 
His appearance at the first Select Comittee was pitiful (he did better at the second one). He was fifth choice for the job and has nothing on his CV that qualifies him for that role. He is the problem at the heart of football. He is too weak and has been influenced by a clique of Club Directors.
His Bank account needs checking.
 
By suggesting City will appeal any adverse 115 decision without mentioning the possibility of the PL appealing any decision in City’s favour, I thought he lacked a bit of balance.

If there is no possibility of the PL appealing, I apologise to Stefan and thought he did a good job of explaining things.
Yes mate I was taking about the APT cases.

Both sides can appeal on limited grounds, if there were mistakes in the process, clear facts misunderstood.

My take is it is better that Stefan gives TS a few crumbs on 115 for the sake of the bigger picture of more balanced reporting on 115/130.

Before Stefan, TS was a cesspit of City hate on 115/130. We are still disliked but there’s more balance.
 
Sounds as if you want him to say something you want to hear (as a worried Blue) rather than tell it as it is. There is no definitive answer to any of the cases we’re involved in because legal issues often have unexpected outcomes & nobody knows the likely outcomes yet (although I’m sure Khaldoon has the QCs’ ears) . Stefan has to put both sides & whether you like it or not there ARE two sides to the cases - the press & rival fans taking one extreme (we’re guilty); City fans taking the other extreme (we’re totally innocent). Stefan tries to explain both sides reasons for their opinions.
Nail on the head. Some incredible stuff on here this morning from Blues whinging that they don't like the fact that an acknowledged expert in the field, and a City supporting antidote to shitehawks like Harris, Herbert and Wallace, isn't making enough unreservedly positive noise about our chances, and as if the Court rooms of the land weren't littered with the corpses of those who thought they had irrefutable evidence. A little circumspection on Stefan's part then is just common sense based on experience.
I like a moan as much as the next man (and quite a bit more if I'm being honest), but there's people on here who, if you handed them a free holiday in the Caribbean, would put their best compo faces on and complain that their Pina Coladas were too creamy and the sand too hot.....
 
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Thought Stefan was excellent on TalkSPORT. It is good when there is a proper debate. I wish that he had turned the question about City appealing should they lose to ask Custis what happens if City win?
Who was he on with this time.
I take it Jordon was not on.
 
rag cafe has worked themselves up into a frenzy, were getting an 80 point deduction sometime during this season or for the start of next along with a transfer ban of 3 windows, what proves the transfer ban is tying Haaland down on his long term contract and splashing the cash in January
Haaland must be happy playing in the championship then if we are getting 80 point deduction.
They mustn't have thought about that minor detail.
 
Nail on the head. Some incredible stuff on here this morning from Blues whinging that they don't like the fact that an acknowledged expert in the field, and a City supporting antidote to shitehawks like Harris, Herbert and Wallace, isn't making enough unreservedly positive noise about our chances, and as if the Court rooms of the land weren't littered with the corpses of those who thought they had irrefutable evidence. A little circumspection on Stefan's part then is just common sense based on experience.
I like a moan as much as the next man (and quite a bit more if I'm being honest), but there's people on here who, if you handed them a free holiday in the Caribbean, would put their best compo faces on and complain that their Pina Coladas were too creamy and the sand too hot.....
I think people forget that Stefan is a lawyer and his focus is on the legal issues. He’s an expert in this area and he rightly sticks to the facts and informed opinion. The story about City and the way they have been treated by the PL is a much broader narrative so other opinions are valid.
 
Thought Stefan was excellent on TalkSPORT. It is good when there is a proper debate. I wish that he had turned the question about City appealing should they lose to ask Custis what happens if City win?

I think that simple comment is what the critics are wanting. Stefan is there as an expert to answer their questions & provide sensible commentary. It’s always better without White & Jordan interrupting.
 
Didnt i read somewhere that the owner loan part of the Apt hearing wasnt even part of our initial arguement but csme out in the hearing. if so it shows hiw cases can develop and the only people who truely know are the people at the hearing.
 
It's all gone a bit CSI Miami this thread. So the PL now want to access phones,data,computers etc without valid reason. What fucking planet are they on. I have worked in policing for 27 years and it is fucking hard to access someones phone!!!!
Masters is way way out of his depth. The league is corrupt to the core to protect the cartel yet we are sang at, chanted at as being the big bad wolves. Pretty ironic really when it is us as a club trying to expose it. We should be praised not criticised
Serpico -:)
 

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