Political relations between UK-EU

[mancity2012_eamo]

Makes sense tbf. Kerry and Cork would be happier, Belfast and Dublin should be in charge of their own provinces, same with Mayo and Galway.

Edited my post a wee bit since you replied.

 

[Vic]

Ah, you have sussed out the Govt’s negotiating strategy...

No, that's this:

Looks like for reasons that are hard to fathom the government asked for something illogical and probably unreasonable, the musicians are collateral damage

 

[aguero93:20]

Edited my post a wee bit since you replied.

Saw that, no worries

 

[joe123]

That depends on which side of the argument they sit.

My friend’s wife says never.

My Catholic pal from Belfast says now.

Catholic population growth would suggest they’ll have the numbers soon enough. There’s a lot of factors, emotional and economic on top of that tho. Would guess at it being a fairly long process if and when the wheels are in motion. Both violence and economic trouble are too fresh in the memory for any rushed moves.

 

[Ban-jani]

Catholic population growth would suggest they’ll have the numbers soon enough. There’s a lot of factors, emotional and economic on top of that tho. Would guess at it being a fairly long process if and when the wheels are in motion. Both violence and economic trouble are too fresh in the memory for any rushed moves.

There were claims a few years ago of this happening by now but what the studies show, is that even a Catholic majority doesn’t result in an upward trend for a United Ireland.

In a 2018 poll, 45% said they were Catholic but only 25% said they were solely Irish as their identity and that roughly translates into unification supporters.

So Catholicism might overtake Protestantism in NI, or may have already, but only just, but it’s not going to be enough to move enough into the direction of independence.

Independence in NI is less popular than Scotland was in 2014.

The vote is never going to be held anyway, there’s too much at stake.

 

[mcfc1632]

That makes absolutely no sense though. Scope of negotiations of what? It was always going to be part of the future deal negotiations which couldn’t start until there was a withdrawal agreement in place. They didn’t have any input into our requirements for that at all, it was long past their time.

It’s not just one programme, it never has been, it’s always been two - the WA then the future deal. Visa arrangements have changed between the two, as they were always going to. May and Robbins have absolutely nothing to do with what we’ve decided to do as part of this deal though.

Not only does it make perfect sense - it is the reality. I am speaking with regard to how things are managed as large programmes - as Brexit should have been but wasn't.

Re the part of your post that I have highlighted - with respect this is simply not how these things work.

The detail of what is negotiated in 2020 is derived from what has been captured as requirements and solutionised in the years 2017-2019 - I am sorry - it really is just how these things work

As I said earlier - this means that there will be a great many inconveniences - that were avoidable - that will have to be reacted to as they come to light - because they were not identified when they should have because May/Hammond prevented that work happening

I accept that it might be confusing if you are not familiar with the preparation and management of major programmes - but it really is true

Anyway - enough for me tonight

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

There were claims a few years ago of this happening by now but what the studies show, is that even a Catholic majority doesn’t result in an upward trend for a United Ireland.

In a 2018 poll, 45% said they were Catholic but only 25% said they were solely Irish as their identity and that roughly translates into unification supporters.

So Catholicism might overtake Protestantism in NI, or may have already, but only just, but it’s not going to be enough to move enough into the direction of independence.

Independence in NI is less popular than Scotland was in 2014.

The vote is never going to be held anyway, there’s too much at stake.

There were claims a few years ago of this happening by now but what the studies show, is that even a Catholic majority doesn’t result in an upward trend for a United Ireland.

In a 2018 poll, 45% said they were Catholic but only 25% said they were solely Irish as their identity and that roughly translates into unification supporters.

So Catholicism might overtake Protestantism in NI, or may have already, but only just, but it’s not going to be enough to move enough into the direction of independence.

Independence in NI is less popular than Scotland was in 2014.

The vote is never going to be held anyway, there’s too much at stake.

Reunification into a 32 county sovereign state, could become all the more attractive to elements of the Catholic unionists as well as a younger Protestant educated electorate, if doing so gave automatic re-entry into the EU, similar to East Germany.

The GFA provides for a referendum should the desire be there both north and south of the border. So don’t say ‘never’.

 

[mcfc1632]

And we’re talking about it’s immigration policy...

You are the one who wants to extend FoM to elsewhere, surely you should be talking about how the EU needs to let other people in?

Came across this article:

Leave and Remain voters both favour end to free movement, but want to keep EU rules on firms (inews.co.uk)

And it made me think about the discussion of last week on FOM and open borders - and your calm and sensible support for a points based system

I of course agree with your stance - but others seemed to be suggesting that we were in the minority - apparently, as we knew, we are not:

"Voters from across the political spectrum are broadly in favour of immigration but want EU citizens to face tougher restrictions on moving to Britain, according to new research led by Britain’s best-known polling guru."

I thought these comments might suggest that our thinking is in common with the vast majority:

"Asked for their views on migration, a majority said that immigrants from elsewhere benefited Britain’s culture and economy. 63 per cent thought migration was a boost to the economy with just 6 per cent saying it was damaging."

and

"However, most supported the abolition of free movement from the EU, which took legal effect on Friday. Asked whether European citizens should have to apply to live in the UK in the same way as non-EU migrants, 73 per cent backed the idea while 17 per cent opposed. By the end of the deliberative sessions even a majority of Remain voters endorsed the change, up to 57 per cent from an initial 41 per cent."

 

[BobKowalski]

Came across this article:

Leave and Remain voters both favour end to free movement, but want to keep EU rules on firms (inews.co.uk)

And it made me think about the discussion of last week on FOM and open borders - and your calm and sensible support for a points based system

I of course agree with your stance - but others seemed to be suggesting that we were in the minority - apparently, as we knew, we are not:

"Voters from across the political spectrum are broadly in favour of immigration but want EU citizens to face tougher restrictions on moving to Britain, according to new research led by Britain’s best-known polling guru."

I thought these comments might suggest that our thinking is in common with the vast majority:

"Asked for their views on migration, a majority said that immigrants from elsewhere benefited Britain’s culture and economy. 63 per cent thought migration was a boost to the economy with just 6 per cent saying it was damaging."

and

"However, most supported the abolition of free movement from the EU, which took legal effect on Friday. Asked whether European citizens should have to apply to live in the UK in the same way as non-EU migrants, 73 per cent backed the idea while 17 per cent opposed. By the end of the deliberative sessions even a majority of Remain voters endorsed the change, up to 57 per cent from an initial 41 per cent."

Not this nonsense again.

We didn’t end EU citizens freedom of movement. We ended British citizens * freedom of movement. Pose the question the correct way and you will flip those findings in thirty minutes.

Guaranteed.

* Not applicable in NI

 

[meltonblue]

Not only does it make perfect sense - it is the reality. I am speaking with regard to how things are managed as large programmes - as Brexit should have been but wasn't.

Re the part of your post that I have highlighted - with respect this is simply not how these things work.

The detail of what is negotiated in 2020 is derived from what has been captured as requirements and solutionised in the years 2017-2019 - I am sorry - it really is just how these things work

As I said earlier - this means that there will be a great many inconveniences - that were avoidable - that will have to be reacted to as they come to light - because they were not identified when they should have because May/Hammond prevented that work happening

I accept that it might be confusing if you are not familiar with the preparation and management of major programmes - but it really is true

Anyway - enough for me tonight

I’ll reiterate, brexit was always essentially two programmes. Your third paragraph is just wrong, a stipulation before agreeing the WA was that discussions around that future agreement couldn’t take place until the WA was in place. Nothing could be “solutionised” (ffs on that btw...) until post it and we’d had further discussions as you can’t solution anything until you know the requirements from both sides if you’re still in negotiations. We only stipulated what we wanted in Feb 2020 for example in regard to visas.

The WA and what Johnson signed up to, there’s an argument that you can blame May for some
of it. Not for the future agreement though, that’s either being disingenuous or just not understanding it at all.

Programme management and processes wise, you might pull a few in with that, but trust me, I’m not your target audience to try that with.

Let’s just leave it at that though.