Political relations between UK-EU

Without support of those in positions of power not just politicians, but those who wield power in the media, it was always an uphill struggle to gain any support despite there being a long tradition of Euroscepticism on the Labour left going back to the days of Benn and Foot. Corbyn is a long time sceptic but was hamstrung by a CLP more intent in removing him than supporting him, so LEXIT was denied a face on the left.

Nobody was arguing on the basis of Revolutionary Communist theory, Marxism, Gramsci, Luxembourg or any other leftist philosophical figure. It recognised the importance of of values and identity. Small C conservative values are inherent to Democratic Socialism.

The Brexiteers of the right used this very effectively, Remain has no counter narrative. As Lexit was pushed out of the picture due to lack of figurehead the case for renationalisation was left as Labour party policy rather than a benefit of leaving.

I take neither of them seriously, they have both become parodies of themselves. Jones the self proclaimed Socialist is a liberal, pure and simple. Mason the Music graduate has his good points, he is pointedly anti fascist, but has become a figure of fun on the left, many think his bats have left his belfry.

Brexit i am certain has its racist and xenophobic element, James O'Brien is fond of saying "Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but every racist voted leave"

There may be an element of truth to that. 40 years of propaganda is never going to be changed overnight, thankfully this government is doing its level best to eradicate those 40 years of propaganda and this pandemic has highlighted the flaws in neo-liberalism just as it has also highlighted the flaws in democracy.

I was arguing against austerity on here 10 years ago, I warned of the consequences, I highlighted the idiotic analogies, but propaganda is strong and the Tories to be fair were excellent at propagandising the message to full effect.

From my perspective, there is now hope where there was no hope that a Socialist country can be realised. I would have i have stated previously been quite happy to vote remain of there was a vision for the future. Remain failed through a mixture of arrogance and complacency and they lacked a vision.

How would a lexit campaign ever have media support? There is no traditional media outlets that would be likely to take such a position and recommend it. But it got coverage by columnists taking devil's advocate positions. The reality is that you have to accept that hard left positions will never get wide coverage by established media outlets and you have to fight within the political arena that exists not one of your choosing.

Mcdonnell and Abbott were of similar persuasions, and both heavily backed remain. When Corbyn first came to power, he used "we" rather than "I", he didn't mean it as a royal we. On that basis It would be out of place for him to turn around and dictate the party position based on historical views.

The trouble with not having your voice heard loudly and broadly is that it doesn't take on a distinctive and definitive character. Nobody can answer what Lexit claimed to be because there many versions. The are contemporaneous publications in sites like socialistworker prereferendum that advocated Lexit as an opportunity following the collapse of a chaos engulfed Tory party that evoked ideas that sound heavily wedded in socialist theory of 20th century figures.

Unlike Lexit, Brexit had a distinct voice in the form of vote leave and leave.Eu. Although there were two camps, one was just a more cynical bare-faced version that did the heavy lifting of stoking naked xenophobia. Both Farage and Boris are proponents of neo-mercantilism and low tax regimes first and foremost.

Remain and reform, although a fringe argument was still better articulated and had wider support than Lexit.

This country is not the only one prone to simplistic propaganda tools, see Germany's Swabian housewife vs the Southern European grasshoppers evoked by Merkel against Greece. Human beings are prone to reductive storytelling at the expense of truth and reason, propaganda can always evolve and survive.

For example austerity could die but ideas of neo-liberal politics and economics could grow and renew- there are still chronically infected in reservoirs of nutjobberery ready to beat its drum.

Lexit never took hold because it was a shit idea not rooted in reality. There were ways to skirt around state aid laws to further public ownership and greater intervention in key industries without unleashing the destructive and corrosive forces of Brexit.

British governments had idealogical reasons for not intervening in circumstances where the French and Germans would have done, but evoked state aid rules to escape scrutiny.

Is it Pethaps more likely that Corbyn took a position more in keeping with the reality of the country and his party than any act of politcal sabotage or cowardice? He was a man who never wanted to be a leader and showed it with his characteristically counterproductive stubbornness and indecision.

The politics of false betrayal and grievance is a right wing trait that the hardline Lexiteers have adopted and will cling to throughout any future defeat such as regression in worker's rights or environmental protections. Clinging to the tree that will never bear fruit with all the stubborn determination of a Japanese holdout.
 
Well here’s two off the top of my head:
We’ve got 60+ trade deals in place, we were told in this thread would not happen, in the last 11 months.
We now have an excellent immigration policy.

As time progresses, things are ironed out, we’ll see many more.

I’ve always been a big Eurosceptic but I voted Remain in 2016 because I didn’t trust the Tories to lead us through this, and it was a bit too soon after the World Financial Crisis. If we’d done this with a better Political party in about another 15 years I think that would have been the ideal time.

But I’m not too bothered that we have left, despite the shit govt, depsite it being a bit soon after 2007-08 crash, despite the fact there will be some grave problems early doors; because I know long term that Britain will be a better country outside the EU by the time the children of this country are adults, than it is now and certainly than it would be by that time if we’d stayed in.
Will it really? What makes you think we will be better off in 20 years time in a world dominated by massive trading blocks and globalisation? Where do you see these opportunities? I just see gradual decline in our economy and standard of living. If England continues to vote in Governments like this one, I see a far worse outcome than that.
 
If you don’t like this thread, and it seems you don’t, why are you on it mate? Are you really telling folk they shouldn’t be talking about the biggest political change of most of our lifetime and the ramifications of that change three weeks after it has been implemented?

that would seem a strange argument to try and win.
Or maybe your just having a bit of fun with folk like others on here try?
I’m on the thread because I’m interested in the topic, I just don’t like the tactics used on the thread.

No, for the third time, I’m not telling people they shouldn’t be discussing this, I’m asking what people, who appear so passionate about this being shit and have shouted down any and all positives about it for five years, what they did about stopping it in the first place.
 
Neil Hudson is in Parliament as I type this saying that anyone who enters into a trade deal with us, when it comes to food standards, they have to move up to our food standards to trade with us.

The Global Food Security Index (GFSI) placed the UK in third place for food standards. GFSI found the following 10 counties to have the top overall scores for affordability, availability and quality and safety:
1 Singapore
2 Ireland
3 UK
3= USA
5 Netherlands
6 Australia
7 Switzerland
8 Finland
9 Canada
10 France

Another done by the Conference Board of Canada ranked us in fourth in their World Ranking of Food Safety Performance:
1 Singapore
2 Ireland
3 France
4 UK
5 USA

This particular study focused on three major areas, these being:

  • Food safety risk management
  • Food safety risk assessment
  • Food safety risk communication

The USA and EU are not going to raise their standards to meet ours. We meet theirs. That’s how the world works. The US imposes it’s industry practises on the countries it does deals with. Big country beats small country. If we don‘t accept, as is our right, then no deal.
 
Off the top of my head in the time frame of writing one post I came up with:
Demanding to speak to your local MP to question the inept or even complete lack of tactics used by the Remain campaign.
Ivan Lewis..
Create blogs/video channels/websites, organise meetings in your area, or even go door-to-door, to try and educate people further than what the Remain campaign were failing at doing.
Even getting involved in the Remain campaign.
Spent time on a website pointing out possible brexit flaws. Three years infact. Didn't really achieve much.
If I was as passionate about Remain winning/Brexit not happening as some on this thread appear to be (look at the posting rates on this thread, it wasn’t even left alone on Christmas Day morning for fuck’s sake!) but I did close to nothing else but vote a few times, I wouldn’t be coming on
What else did you do then, apart from vote?
Bluemoon to moan about it every day, I’d be looking back at what I did (fuck all) with my head in my hands thinking “why the fuck didn’t I do more?!” and then I’d be actioning something for the future to make things better, not making the same mistake of doing fuck all other than moaning on Bluemoon.
Not sure what 'actioning' i can do to restore the schengen, eu health card, visa free work and travel or the price of fish.
 
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Well here’s two off the top of my head:
We’ve got 60+ trade deals in place, we were told in this thread would not happen, in the last 11 months.
We now have an excellent immigration policy.

As time progresses, things are ironed out, we’ll see many more.

I’ve always been a big Eurosceptic but I voted Remain in 2016 because I didn’t trust the Tories to lead us through this, and it was a bit too soon after the World Financial Crisis. If we’d done this with a better Political party in about another 15 years I think that would have been the ideal time.

But I’m not too bothered that we have left, despite the shit govt, depsite it being a bit soon after 2007-08 crash, despite the fact there will be some grave problems early doors; because I know long term that Britain will be a better country outside the EU by the time the children of this country are adults, than it is now and certainly than it would be by that time if we’d stayed in.
How do you know this?
 

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