Political relations between UK-EU

[Vic]

I thought that was the whole point. Force employers to pay a decent wage rather than relying on cheap labour from Eastern Europe.

i reckon £19,344 is 42 hours a week on minimum wage.

Who's going to pay? People paying privately for care home care are already subsidising those paid by local authorities. Local authorities can't pay more because the Tories are still cutting grants, and the demand is ever growing.

Who's willing to pay more tax to fund care? Is this electorate which has voted in this government that hates local democracy and hasn't even refunded all the councils' Covid costs? Did people vote Leave to pay Brits more to induce them to work in care homes and pick fruit and serve in Pret?

This isn't really a Brexit issue - it's an immigration issue. (Oh, wait - there might be some connection.)

Anyway, from the Competition and Market Authority:

"The current model of service provision cannot be sustained without additional public funding; the parts of the industry that supply primarily local authority (LA)-funded residents are unlikely to be sustainable at the current rates LAs pay. Significant reforms are needed to enable the sector to grow to meet the expected substantial increase in care needs."

We've been waiting ten years for the Tories to come up with any proposal for reform.

 

[BobKowalski]

The Erasmus decision was completely needless but in my opinion freedom of movement is a bonkers between nation states of economic disparity.

Bulgaria doesn’t benefit if it’s brightest and most talented up sticks and move to London.

Local populations inheriting many people experience stresses on infrastructure, places in schools, doctors appointments, housing crisis, issues with significant cultural changes that they didn’t necessarily want nor ask for.

I feel the same way when I drive through Levenshulme as I do when I went to Benidorm on a stag do, and to see what Brits have done there.

I am pro immigration and completely appreciate the need for people with STEM skills, as an example, to come into the country and we should accept people from all around the world.

But we should do so in a controlled manner, where we set the criteria and where we can manage it. It’s why, one of the few things I approve of this year, from this government, is their new immigration policy. It’s actually a brilliant policy, that will grant different people the chance to come and settle, but ultimately those who have the skills we need.

It doesn’t matter whether they’re Bangladeshi or Dutch, that’s another aspect I like, it’s blind to where they are coming from.

We are a very crowded, small island and immigration being controlled is a very big benefit of leaving the EU.

However I still feel all the benefits of remaining, are greater than this specific policy.

This implies that the brightest and best are obliged to stay in Bulgaria. Why? It’s a country not a prison camp. If someone wants to make a life in another country than why make that difficult?

Why are we limiting opportunities for people based on an accident of birth? Born in UK, worlds your oyster, born in Bulgaria, your uncle’s pig farm needs you.

Sounds harsh to me :)

 

[BobKowalski]

indeed. So you can have a roof over your head with a house built for you already being on this land, with locks on your doors to keep out whoever you don't want in your house.

But the UK has to have free movement of people and let in whoever wants to come, let them take houses built for people already here and do what they want because it's better that way, we can't have restrictions on who goes where we just have to accept it blindly because it's a "benefit".

Yes, that’s how freedom of movement works. They come over here, drive you out of your house, and bed your womenfolk while twirling handlebar moustaches and laughing maniacally.

Pretty sure Farage did a poster campaign on it...

 

[Ban-jani]

This implies that the brightest and best are obliged to stay in Bulgaria. Why? It’s a country not a prison camp. If someone wants to make a life in another country than why make that difficult?

Why are we limiting opportunities for people based on an accident of birth? Born in UK, worlds your oyster, born in Bulgaria, your uncle’s pig farm needs you.

Sounds harsh to me :)

They’re not obliged to stay anywhere if they can meet a visa requirement to move but if you cease to have any immigration policy, other than open borders for all, then too many leave Bulgaria for bigger economies.

I say this as someone who’s direct report, who has contributed heavily to targets, is from Bulgaria and has emigrated to the UK, I am very lucky to have her so I know full well the benefit they bring. I want people like her to come, just not a large enough number so that Bulgaria doesn’t benefit from their skills at all and she agrees it’s a major problem in Eastern Europe.

Basically it’s a balancing act and I think freedom of movement tips it in one way too much. An immigration policy that doesn’t allow talented people we need to come, will tip it the other way and negatively affect the economy.

It’s not all pig farms, that’s a little derogatory. There’s big international companies in Sofia and to get investment, they also need the talent to be there.

Rather than turning it in to pig farms, they need to keep enough of their highly talented professionals.

 

[Ric]

Not sure it really helps matters when ministers are still openly trying to mislead people. They hold the public in complete contempt it seems.

 

[BobKowalski]

They’re not obliged to stay anywhere if they can meet a visa requirement to move but if you cease to have any immigration policy, other than open borders for all, then too many leave Bulgaria for bigger economies.

I say this as someone who’s direct report, who has contributed heavily to targets, is from Bulgaria and has emigrated to the UK, I am very lucky to have her so I know full well the benefit they bring. I want people like her to come, just not a large enough number so that Bulgaria doesn’t benefit from their skills at all and she agrees it’s a major problem in Eastern Europe.

Basically it’s a balancing act and I think freedom of movement tips it in one way too much. An immigration policy that doesn’t allow talented people we need to come, will tip it the other way and negatively affect the economy.

It’s not all pig farms, that’s a little derogatory. There’s big international companies in Sofia and to get investment, they also need the talent to be there.

Rather than turning it in to pig farms, they need to keep enough of their highly talented professionals.

I am uncomfortable with the idea people can be denied by birth, borders and barriers from making a life outside the area they are born, anymore than someone in Cumbria cannot move to London because too many leaving will impact the local economy.

It smacks of state planning of the economy, officials deeming the right numbers of people to live in areas, imposing controls and putting up barriers to prevent people moving.

I guess I have a philosophical aversion to it.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

Yes, that’s how freedom of movement works. They come over here, drive you out of your house, and bed your womenfolk while twirling handlebar moustaches and laughing maniacally.

Pretty sure Farage did a poster campaign on it...

It's as much their country as your house is mine.

 

[PannickAtTheDisco]

I am uncomfortable with the idea people can be denied by birth, borders and barriers from making a life outside the area they are born, anymore than someone in Cumbria cannot move to London because too many leaving will impact the local economy.

It smacks of state planning of the economy, officials deeming the right numbers of people to live in areas, imposing controls and putting up barriers to prevent people moving.

I guess I have a philosophical aversion to it.

Or someone coming round and kip in your house and help themselves to what's in the fridge without you having any say...

 

[Rascal]

you can theoretically be what you want, but practically there's a defined subset of applications which results in authoritarianism. You may not want it, but it's what you would get. Jordan has highlighted and exposed a number of key issues within both the media, politics and the university system and whilst there's plenty to not agree with, there's plenty that has truth to it. I see you dodged the rest of it which doesn't surprise me.

And I am anti authoritarian, I am a Democratic Socialist.

Peterson is a clown, its that simple.

What did I dodge, and you dodged my premise about what i wanted to go off on tangents about authoritarianism when I have not suggested I am in favour of authoritarianism. Do you not want everyone to prosper then? Are you against people having homes and food? Are you against respect and dignity for the old and infirm?

 

[Rascal]

I am uncomfortable with the idea people can be denied by birth, borders and barriers from making a life outside the area they are born, anymore than someone in Cumbria cannot move to London because too many leaving will impact the local economy.

It smacks of state planning of the economy, officials deeming the right numbers of people to live in areas, imposing controls and putting up barriers to prevent people moving.

I guess I have a philosophical aversion to it.

I am in favour of immigration controls albeit limited ones but you make a salient point Bob. For generations we have had freedom of movement throughout the UK, we are four nations without controls and have had a drain towards London for generations and from rural areas to Cities for generations. The local economies of small villages in the Lake District suffer from loss of talent to the cities just as much as countries suffer from loss of talent to bigger more prosperous countries.

There is though reversals to this, one area I do know about is dermatology. Salford Royal is possibly the leading Dermatology centre in the world. Doctors come from all over the world to train at Salford Royal. I know this because I have given talks to Doctors from Eygpt, Syria, France, Chile and others about patient experiences under the care of Salford Royal and the Dermatology team there. Those Doctors learn loads whilst at Salford Royal then they go back to their own nations armed with greater knowledge that helps patients in there own countries. I still speak to one of the Doctors from Chile who ended up helping us on a campaign i was involved with. She went back to Chile and is now involved with a project started at Salford Royal called the Global Psoriasis Atlas. That has Doctors involved from virtually every part of the world and nearly all of them have had contact or been at Salford Royal at some point in there careers.

The remain camp never used this sort of thing as a positive for remaining in the EU, it is a brilliant example of where multi national co=operation actually benefits the whole world rather than the inwards looking view of some brexiteers.

Like you i also am not wholly comfortable with the idea of borders. They are arbitary and can cause more problems than they solve. One reason i am a Democratic Socialist and internationalist is that in my opinion the biggest barrier to freedom of movement is capitalism and its desperate need for profit over people. If everyone was guarenteed a fair wage for a fair days work it would not matter if a person lived in Burnley, Birmingham, Braemar or Bulgaria. Movement of people would be less of an issue as they would be encouraged to stay within their roots as they would have what they desired there rather than 10,000 miles away.

 

[urban genie]

The Erasmus decision was completely needless but in my opinion freedom of movement is a bonkers between nation states of economic disparity.

Bulgaria doesn’t benefit if it’s brightest and most talented up sticks and move to London.

Local populations inheriting many people experience stresses on infrastructure, places in schools, doctors appointments, housing crisis, issues with significant cultural changes that they didn’t necessarily want nor ask for.

I feel the same way when I drive through Levenshulme as I do when I went to Benidorm on a stag do, and to see what Brits have done there.

I am pro immigration and completely appreciate the need for people with STEM skills, as an example, to come into the country and we should accept people from all around the world.

But we should do so in a controlled manner, where we set the criteria and where we can manage it. It’s why, one of the few things I approve of this year, from this government, is their new immigration policy. It’s actually a brilliant policy, that will grant different people the chance to come and settle, but ultimately those who have the skills we need.

It doesn’t matter whether they’re Bangladeshi or Dutch, that’s another aspect I like, it’s blind to where they are coming from.

We are a very crowded, small island and immigration being controlled is a very big benefit of leaving the EU.

However I still feel all the benefits of remaining, are greater than this specific policy.

Well the way to solve the problem of Bulgarias brightest having to seek better paid use of theor talents is a mpre egalitarian say socialist wage system across all proffessions and nations.


Never understood how europe can decide have a single currency and then an inbalance on pay for people of the same skillset across the federation, once a centralised bank and currency was in place then the countries should have become economically balanced.

A EU where the already established richer countries will always have an advantage will mean people will always travel to look for more secured, better earning employment, and this has been going on since the dawn of humanity tbf.

Plus why not let people travel about and live and experience other places, if a bulgqruan is working here and paying their taxes, morgage, NI etc, then they are contributing more than those that choose to be idle cunts but are born and bred here and contribute fuck all.(that isn't a slight on those on wellfare who in the main are hard working individials or cannot work thrpugh no fault of their own but the small number of lazy twats all nations have.)


Also our cities and living in a city makes this nation and island seem overcrowded, but the ONS last data
The data suggests that 12% of UK land is ‘urban and developed’, which would leave 88% for everywhere else. This is land with homes and other buildings, roads, and urban green space. The rest is agricultural land (65%), forest (13%), marine areas and coastland (2%), and the rest is either freshwater or other types of land

 

[Ban-jani]

I am uncomfortable with the idea people can be denied by birth, borders and barriers from making a life outside the area they are born, anymore than someone in Cumbria cannot move to London because too many leaving will impact the local economy.

It smacks of state planning of the economy, officials deeming the right numbers of people to live in areas, imposing controls and putting up barriers to prevent people moving.

I guess I have a philosophical aversion to it.

Imagine if that was implemented globally and what Britain as a small island would look like.

It’s crackers Bob and thankfully it’s never going to be done.

 

[Ban-jani]

Well the way to solve the problem of Bulgarias brightest having to seek better paid use of theor talents is a mpre egalitarian say socialist wage system across all proffessions and nations.


Never understood how europe can decide have a single currency and then an inbalance on pay for people of the same skillset across the federation, once a centralised bank and currency was in place then the countries should have become economically balanced.

A EU where the already established richer countries will always have an advantage will mean people will always travel to look for more secured, better earning employment, and this has been going on since the dawn of humanity tbf.

Plus why not let people travel about and live and experience other places, if a bulgqruan is working here and paying their taxes, morgage, NI etc, then they are contributing more than those that choose to be idle cunts but are born and bred here and contribute fuck all.(that isn't a slight on those on wellfare who in the main are hard working individials or cannot work thrpugh no fault of their own but the small number of lazy twats all nations have.)


Also our cities and living in a city makes this nation and island seem overcrowded, but the ONS last data
The data suggests that 12% of UK land is ‘urban and developed’, which would leave 88% for everywhere else. This is land with homes and other buildings, roads, and urban green space. The rest is agricultural land (65%), forest (13%), marine areas and coastland (2%), and the rest is either freshwater or other types of land

Do you really want our beautiful countryside to be gone for ever?

 

[mcfc1632]

The salary is just one way of earning the points and it only accounts for 10 points.

Qualified care workers, can come and work if they speak English and there’s a job waiting for them.

They will get the top 3 and 20 points from “job shortage” column.

View attachment 7435

When some (all? FAIK) EU countries consider the applications of non-EU citizens, including UK, for residency, they require information on earnings and this is to assess the risk that the individual may place a drain on that country's resources. This requirement is not only a 'UK thing'.

 

[Ban-jani]

When some (all? FAIK) EU countries consider the applications of non-EU citizens, including UK, for residency, they require information on earnings and this is to assess the risk that the individual may place a drain on that country's resources. This requirement is not only a 'UK thing'.

Yep, that’s been going on for ages.

My step brother had an American friend, who was dating his mate.

She was telling me a few years ago she needed to earn a certain amount before her current visa expired or she’d have to go back to the states.

She was from a bit of a shit hole where part of Breaking Bad was based on, she said, so she was desperate to stay and was looking for a new job.

 

[urban genie]

Do you really want our beautiful countryside to be gone for ever?

Splitting hairs now.

You claimed the place was crowded, it obviously isn't and I am sure the monarchy could spare a lot of the unused land they own that is private and so isn't any us peasants beautiful countryside as we are barred from it, or the defunct brownfill sites that sit idle, or the stateley himes tgat take up acres for at time.one dodderimg old lord to live in, give the **** a one bedroomed flat and put the place to better use

The cities are are crowded and every bit of green in then seems to get built on, while vast areas of the country are left untouched and unavailable to it's citizens

 

[mcfc1632]

Is it? There are bubbling issues with Hungary and Poland, who are either potentially planning to also leave the EU or planning to destabilise from within. The major nations of Germany and France don’t care much for the economic plight of the the Med countries who’s economies have been in a right mess for a long time, with the Euro and the EU doing little to get their economies going other than austerity measures (which are a major ideal of the EU). In fact you could argue they’re benefitting from their plight.

Other NATO countries feel the EU core do not pull their weight when they’re needed.

The EU lost grip of who comes into the EU and who crosses borders within the EU a long time ago. People with no documents or false documents from within or coming into to EU, has lead situation where we actually have no idea the entirety of how many people [and who] actually live in this country because free movement was so slack with the EU.

Also countries in the EU who do not work together towards the External Action Service. Individual countries actually guard their security policies between themselves much more than is assumed.

There are a whole range of prevailing conditions that will lead to the 'bubbling issues' to become 'boiling over crises'

It is not simply 'all working well in 30 countries'

 

[Vic]

Well the way to solve the problem of Bulgarias brightest having to seek better paid use of theor talents is a mpre egalitarian say socialist wage system across all proffessions and nations.


Never understood how europe can decide have a single currency and then an inbalance on pay for people of the same skillset across the federation, once a centralised bank and currency was in place then the countries should have become economically balanced.

A EU where the already established richer countries will always have an advantage will mean people will always travel to look for more secured, better earning employment, and this has been going on since the dawn of humanity tbf.

Plus why not let people travel about and live and experience other places, if a bulgqruan is working here and paying their taxes, morgage, NI etc, then they are contributing more than those that choose to be idle cunts but are born and bred here and contribute fuck all.(that isn't a slight on those on wellfare who in the main are hard working individials or cannot work thrpugh no fault of their own but the small number of lazy twats all nations have.)


Also our cities and living in a city makes this nation and island seem overcrowded, but the ONS last data
The data suggests that 12% of UK land is ‘urban and developed’, which would leave 88% for everywhere else. This is land with homes and other buildings, roads, and urban green space. The rest is agricultural land (65%), forest (13%), marine areas and coastland (2%), and the rest is either freshwater or other types of land

There's a bit less than 88% now with two lorry parks being built on farmland in Kent.

(Why is the Guardian the only national paper carrying the story of the wrath of the local residents in Dover to theirs? Has the local Tory MP - whose husband was the MP until he went to jail - said anything about it? Yes - she wants better boundary treatment.)

Living in the shadow of Brexit's customs clearance sites

In weeks their glorious sunsets will be eclipsed by hundreds of lorries. We met the country folk who'll be living beside Kent's inland border points

www.kentonline.co.uk

 

[Ban-jani]

Splitting hairs now.

You claimed the place was crowded, it obviously isn't and I am sure the monarchy could spare a lot of the unused land they own that is private and so isn't any us peasants beautiful countryside as we are barred from it, or the defunct brownfill sites that sit idle, or the stateley himes tgat take up acres for at time.one dodderimg old lord to live in, give the **** a one bedroomed flat and put the place to better use

The cities are are crowded and every bit of green in then seems to get built on, while vast areas of the country are left untouched and unavailable to it's citizens

It is very much crowded, unless we want to spend a fortune on ruining the countryside.

Which still wouldn’t solve infrastructure problems, all that would do is solve the housing crisis.

Not sure what the monarchy has to do with it.

Rather than doing all that, wouldn’t it make sense to have a sensible points based system like NZ, AUS, Canada have, reduce numbers but continue to allow those we need to come?

 

[mcfc1632]

.............Another analogy could be that a rising tide floats all boats. That one may appeal more to those seeking deregulation, also. It is a kind of cover all.
I suppose the devil as they say is in the detail. How you go about rising that tide, does matter.

Good analogy - but of course if the prevailing conditions are for an continuously lowering tide then that also has an effect that individual countries cannot mitigate due to EU membership.