Predator drones

[Josh Blue]

Libya was a terrorist supporting state and yes, oil money was more important than people, some things never change eh?.
My point is that if a country supports terrorism against us, then they get all that is coming to them, drones make the casualties much less than before, sad as it is for the innocent.

Ok, I get it. White civilians die = terrorism. Brown/black civilians die = collateral damage. Cheers for clearing that up for us.

According to recent analysis drone strikes kill up to fifty civilians for every high-level terrorist. Obviously they already know where these people are. So, why don't they extract them? Do you think fifty soldiers would die for every extraction? Honestly. Zero died taking Bin Laden. So why swap fifty dead Pakistanis then? Answer: the lives of white Americans who signed up to die, are worth a lot more than Pakistani civilians. It's absurd to justify it. It is racism, and if you're justifying it, you're justifying racism.

Do not go down the racist route Skansh, you are better than that, there were many Brown/black civilians in the UK,USA and Aus that were victims.
It is about ideology not race.

-- Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:50 pm --

Yes and yes.

Stop funding and training them when it suits (Always going to end badly)

Stop supporting oppressive unelected families like Bahrain.

Impose sanctions on Israel.

Fair prices for oil and minerals in Africa.

No more puppet governments to be placed in the middle east.

Start using oil in home territories instead of taking others.

Raise U.S minimum wage to cope with rising oil prices.

This would be the start...

I agree with every point, but would it stop the fanatics bombing us for a Islamist world?

Yes. Islam does the want to conquer the world. The Quran teaches peace and tolerance of any man who has different beliefs.

Most terror attacks are directly linked with the U.S rape and pillage of the middle east. It is seen as a crusade.

Some suicide bombs in places like Iraq atm are in house problems between the sunni and shia populations. It's very similar to what Northern Ireland was like.

I cannot really think of any bombings linked with fanatics wanting Islam to conquer to world.

 

[Feed-The-Goat]

They need to take them out with ray guns.

 

[Skashion]

Do not go down the racist route Skansh, you are better than that, there were many Brown/black civilians in the UK,USA and Aus that were victims.
It is about ideology not race.

I have a simple concept, every innocent life is equal. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a British civilian, an American civilian or a Pakistani or an Afghan civilian. I always believe the lives of civilians should be placed ahead of the lives of soldiers, because soldiers signed up with a risk of dying. They consented to it. Civilians don't. There should never be a situation where fifty civilians die to kill one terrorist. The civilised and morally right thing to do is to risk soldiers who consented to fight, to go and arrest them if possible, kill if not. Terrorists should be extracted, charged, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned. We did it to Nazi war criminals. It should be what we are doing now. The reality is that the life of a Pakistani or Afghan civilian is worth considerably less than a British or American soldier, and that should not be the case. That is wrong and it is racism. However, we are even getting beyond this right now aren't we.

Go on, try to justify signature strikes to me. Signature strikes for those who don't know are where the identity is unknown and it simply just looks like they might be up to something dodgy i.e. there's no evidence. People on here are somewhat misinformed about the nature of these drone strikes. It is not only civilians in the vicinity of terrorists who are killed, but simply people who fit a pattern. Go on, justify killing someone without evidence. Please, make my day, and fucking justify that for me.

 

[Josh Blue]

Do not go down the racist route Skansh, you are better than that, there were many Brown/black civilians in the UK,USA and Aus that were victims.
It is about ideology not race.

I have a simple concept, every innocent life is equal. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a British civilian, an American civilian or a Pakistani or an Afghan civilian. I always believe the lives of civilians should be placed ahead of the lives of soldiers, because soldiers signed up with a risk of dying. They consented to it. Civilians don't. There should never be a situation where fifty civilians die to kill one terrorist. The civilised and morally right thing to do is to risk soldiers who consented to fight, to go and arrest them if possible, kill if not. Terrorists should be extracted, charged, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned. We did it to Nazi war criminals. It should be what we are doing now. The reality is that the life of a Pakistani or Afghan civilian is worth considerably less than a British or American soldier, and that should not be the case. That is wrong and it is racism. However, we are even getting beyond this right now aren't we.

Go on, try to justify signature strikes to me. Signature strikes for those who don't know are where the identity is unknown and it simply just looks like they might be up to something dodgy i.e. there's no evidence. People on here are somewhat misinformed about the nature of these drone strikes. It is not only civilians in the vicinity of terrorists who are killed, but simply people who fit a pattern. Go on, justify killing someone without evidence. Please, make my day, and fucking justify that for me.

top post, also it is nice to be back on subject.

 

[pominoz]

You are not at risk from Islamic extremists btw. You are more likely to be killed by your local police. Do not worry I can nearly guarantee you won't even be in contact with any Islamic extremists. KEEP CALM YOU ARE NOT AT RISK!

I should imagine that the victims of 7/7, 9/11,Bali, Madrid,Boston all thought the same.
If you agree so much with these guys, why not move to Afghanistan, Yemen, Irag and fight the good fight?

Are those events the cause of our war or the effect of how terrible the west is towards basically everywhere else? Not to mention I think a lot of people's odd/closed minded views on Islam/Arabs in general probably pushes a lot of non terrorists towards extremism and I can't say I disagree. Don't worry though I'm on the next flight out to get my jihad on

I agree, but what do we do to stop it?
Every country has been fucked over by another, that is the way of the worlds history.
These fanatics are not going to stop until they have what they want ( an Islamist world, where we conform or die), and i am talking about the fanatics, not normal Muslims.
What do we do with the fanatics?

 

[Mrmcfc]

Do not go down the racist route Skansh, you are better than that, there were many Brown/black civilians in the UK,USA and Aus that were victims.
It is about ideology not race.

I have a simple concept, every innocent life is equal. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a British civilian, an American civilian or a Pakistani or an Afghan civilian. I always believe the lives of civilians should be placed ahead of the lives of soldiers, because soldiers signed up with a risk of dying. They consented to it. Civilians don't. There should never be a situation where fifty civilians die to kill one terrorist. The civilised and morally right thing to do is to risk soldiers who consented to fight, to go and arrest them if possible, kill if not. Terrorists should be extracted, charged, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned. We did it to Nazi war criminals. It should be what we are doing now. The reality is that the life of a Pakistani or Afghan civilian is worth considerably less than a British or American soldier, and that should not be the case. That is wrong and it is racism. However, we are even getting beyond this right now aren't we.

Go on, try to justify signature strikes to me. Signature strikes for those who don't know are where the identity is unknown and it simply just looks like they might be up to something dodgy i.e. there's no evidence. People on here are somewhat misinformed about the nature of these drone strikes. It is not only civilians in the vicinity of terrorists who are killed, but simply people who fit a pattern. Go on, justify killing someone without evidence. Please, make my day, and fucking justify that for me.

Great post.
I was saying exactly the same to people at work, but they couldn't grasp the concept that all lives are equally important. America get away with causing so much devastation, then play victim when American civilians are killed.

 

[Ducado]

It's always good to look at things through another perspective

First off

If the planes had not driven into the twin towers and other places in the US would the US be in Afghanistan?

The war on terror could stop right now, if the spiritual leaders of the various Salfi groups would call a halt, they have made no indication that they are even willing to stop

Killing Innocent civilians is not right, but neither is it right for combatants to hide among civilians

I sometimes feel that people start to get into hysterics and conspiracy theories, the fact is the US is not targeting civilians they are going after people who they perceive as the enemy

It may in the long term prove to be counter productive, but that's not my point, this is a war the US is waging, war is never pretty people get hurt

There may be lots of underpinning reasons as to why young men seem hell bent on blowing up the west, but that's not the point, as long as they are hell bent on this, the drone attacks will continue

 

[mindmyp's_n_q's]

I should imagine that the victims of 7/7, 9/11,Bali, Madrid,Boston all thought the same.
If you agree so much with these guys, why not move to Afghanistan, Yemen, Irag and fight the good fight?

Are those events the cause of our war or the effect of how terrible the west is towards basically everywhere else? Not to mention I think a lot of people's odd/closed minded views on Islam/Arabs in general probably pushes a lot of non terrorists towards extremism and I can't say I disagree. Don't worry though I'm on the next flight out to get my jihad on

I agree, but what do we do to stop it?
Every country has been fucked over by another, that is the way of the worlds history.
These fanatics are not going to stop until they have what they want ( an Islamist world, where we conform or die), and i am talking about the fanatics, not normal Muslims.
What do we do with the fanatics?

Just stop "the war on terror" The only way that the US or the UK will ever stop the war on terror is when they decide that they are not going to fight it any more.

Stop trying to police the world. They should realise that they have two fucking huge oceans protecting them and that if they left everyone alone then they would in the long run be safer. Or at least when the next 9/11 happens not be so constitutionally fucked up that they rip themselves apart internally.

Do you think "terrorists sit there and go. Oh no the US has passed more anti terror legislation. What ever will we do?" I would have thought that if Osama had been alive he would look back at what the US was before 9/11 and how it is now (and how because of 9/11 the freedom and certain rights of Americans has changed so much for the worse) that the goal he set out to do on that day has worked a fucking treat.

Things I would do if I were Obama.

Go after Saudi Arabia. Osama was a Saudi, the hijackers in the main were Saudi, Saudi is an absolute shit of a country in terms of rights and abuses
Legally define what a terrorist is.
Stop all use of Drones.
Have it so if an attack happens on US soil the police deal with it
Have the police start looking like police again and not like they are US special forces
Not panic when an attack happens
Not legislate instantly a new attack happens
Let the majority of Muslim leaders who are totally against the actions of a few have a role in the media.
Allow the muslim brotherhood to take over nations if that is what the people at the time want (I think that once western-muslims start living under the old rules they will soon over throw them) What this will do is show other muslim states that the grass of an oppressive rule is not that good.
Do not become insane because of fear however rational it seems at the time (history has shown us that fear causes countries to have "temporary insanity" all the time).
.

 

[pominoz]

It's always good to look at things through another perspective

First off

If the planes had not driven into the twin towers and other places in the US would the US be in Afghanistan?

The war on terror could stop right now, if the spiritual leaders of the various Salfi groups would call a halt, they have made no indication that they are even willing to stop

Killing Innocent civilians is not right, but neither is it right for combatants to hide among civilians

I sometimes feel that people start to get into hysterics and conspiracy theories, the fact is the US is not targeting civilians they are going after people who they perceive as the enemy

It may in the long term prove to be counter productive, but that's not my point, this is a war the US is waging, war is never pretty people get hurt

There may be lots of underpinning reasons as to why young men seem hell bent on blowing up the west, but that's not the point, as long as they are hell bent on this, the drone attacks will continue

Not often i agree with you, but that just about sums it up for me.

 

[Josh Blue]

I should imagine that the victims of 7/7, 9/11,Bali, Madrid,Boston all thought the same.
If you agree so much with these guys, why not move to Afghanistan, Yemen, Irag and fight the good fight?

Are those events the cause of our war or the effect of how terrible the west is towards basically everywhere else? Not to mention I think a lot of people's odd/closed minded views on Islam/Arabs in general probably pushes a lot of non terrorists towards extremism and I can't say I disagree. Don't worry though I'm on the next flight out to get my jihad on

I agree, but what do we do to stop it?
Every country has been fucked over by another, that is the way of the worlds history.
These fanatics are not going to stop until they have what they want ( an Islamist world, where we conform or die), and i am talking about the fanatics, not normal Muslims. What do we do with the fanatics?

The bit I highlighted.....why why why why oh why do you keep saying this?

 

[Ducado]

It's always good to look at things through another perspective

First off

If the planes had not driven into the twin towers and other places in the US would the US be in Afghanistan?

The war on terror could stop right now, if the spiritual leaders of the various Salfi groups would call a halt, they have made no indication that they are even willing to stop

Killing Innocent civilians is not right, but neither is it right for combatants to hide among civilians

I sometimes feel that people start to get into hysterics and conspiracy theories, the fact is the US is not targeting civilians they are going after people who they perceive as the enemy

It may in the long term prove to be counter productive, but that's not my point, this is a war the US is waging, war is never pretty people get hurt

There may be lots of underpinning reasons as to why young men seem hell bent on blowing up the west, but that's not the point, as long as they are hell bent on this, the drone attacks will continue

Not often i agree with you, but that just about sums it up for me.

I think on here people get wedded to one viewpoint, and that's it but they forget there are always different ways of looking at things

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

Do not go down the racist route Skansh, you are better than that, there were many Brown/black civilians in the UK,USA and Aus that were victims.
It is about ideology not race.

I have a simple concept, every innocent life is equal. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a British civilian, an American civilian or a Pakistani or an Afghan civilian. I always believe the lives of civilians should be placed ahead of the lives of soldiers, because soldiers signed up with a risk of dying. They consented to it. Civilians don't. There should never be a situation where fifty civilians die to kill one terrorist. The civilised and morally right thing to do is to risk soldiers who consented to fight, to go and arrest them if possible, kill if not. Terrorists should be extracted, charged, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned. We did it to Nazi war criminals. It should be what we are doing now. The reality is that the life of a Pakistani or Afghan civilian is worth considerably less than a British or American soldier, and that should not be the case. That is wrong and it is racism. However, we are even getting beyond this right now aren't we.

Go on, try to justify signature strikes to me. Signature strikes for those who don't know are where the identity is unknown and it simply just looks like they might be up to something dodgy i.e. there's no evidence. People on here are somewhat misinformed about the nature of these drone strikes. It is not only civilians in the vicinity of terrorists who are killed, but simply people who fit a pattern. Go on, justify killing someone without evidence. Please, make my day, and fucking justify that for me.

top post, also it is nice to be back on subject.

The guys that makes those drones are billionaires now

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

It's always good to look at things through another perspective

First off

If the planes had not driven into the twin towers and other places in the US would the US be in Afghanistan?

The war on terror could stop right now, if the spiritual leaders of the various Salfi groups would call a halt, they have made no indication that they are even willing to stop

Killing Innocent civilians is not right, but neither is it right for combatants to hide among civilians

I sometimes feel that people start to get into hysterics and conspiracy theories, the fact is the US is not targeting civilians they are going after people who they perceive as the enemy

It may in the long term prove to be counter productive, but that's not my point, this is a war the US is waging, war is never pretty people get hurt

There may be lots of underpinning reasons as to why young men seem hell bent on blowing up the west, but that's not the point, as long as they are hell bent on this, the drone attacks will continue

I really think you are missing the point here.
You cannot use the 'war on terror' to justify a disproportionate targeting of civilians, and I find your glib 'war is never pretty people get hurt' to be somewhat offensive, because I'm fairly sure that if it was you cradling a dying loved one in their arms, then you wouldn't be so crass about indiscriminate killing.
There is never any ethical justification for killing innocent non-combatants as some kind of acceptable collateral damage of war, because once you abandon any concept of human life being precious, you put yourself on the same moral footing as the very terrorists you are fighting.

 

[Plaything of the gods]

For every action there is a reaction. The US is making a lot of enemies from the bereaved. The use of predator drones will come back to bite the USA in some way at some time.

 

[Josh Blue]

I have a simple concept, every innocent life is equal. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a British civilian, an American civilian or a Pakistani or an Afghan civilian. I always believe the lives of civilians should be placed ahead of the lives of soldiers, because soldiers signed up with a risk of dying. They consented to it. Civilians don't. There should never be a situation where fifty civilians die to kill one terrorist. The civilised and morally right thing to do is to risk soldiers who consented to fight, to go and arrest them if possible, kill if not. Terrorists should be extracted, charged, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned. We did it to Nazi war criminals. It should be what we are doing now. The reality is that the life of a Pakistani or Afghan civilian is worth considerably less than a British or American soldier, and that should not be the case. That is wrong and it is racism. However, we are even getting beyond this right now aren't we.

Go on, try to justify signature strikes to me. Signature strikes for those who don't know are where the identity is unknown and it simply just looks like they might be up to something dodgy i.e. there's no evidence. People on here are somewhat misinformed about the nature of these drone strikes. It is not only civilians in the vicinity of terrorists who are killed, but simply people who fit a pattern. Go on, justify killing someone without evidence. Please, make my day, and fucking justify that for me.

top post, also it is nice to be back on subject.

The guys that makes those drones are billionaires now

The war on 'terror' has made a lot of men very rich. Makes you think.

 

[mindmyp's_n_q's]

For every action there is a reaction. The US is making a lot of enemies from the bereaved. The use of predator drones will come back to bite the USA in some way at some time.

They unofficially call it "mowing the grass" I wonder why they chose that description?

 

[Patientman63]

Do not go down the racist route Skansh, you are better than that, there were many Brown/black civilians in the UK,USA and Aus that were victims.
It is about ideology not race.

I have a simple concept, every innocent life is equal. It doesn't matter to me whether it's a British civilian, an American civilian or a Pakistani or an Afghan civilian. I always believe the lives of civilians should be placed ahead of the lives of soldiers, because soldiers signed up with a risk of dying. They consented to it. Civilians don't. There should never be a situation where fifty civilians die to kill one terrorist. The civilised and morally right thing to do is to risk soldiers who consented to fight, to go and arrest them if possible, kill if not. Terrorists should be extracted, charged, and if found guilty sentenced and imprisoned. We did it to Nazi war criminals. It should be what we are doing now. The reality is that the life of a Pakistani or Afghan civilian is worth considerably less than a British or American soldier, and that should not be the case. That is wrong and it is racism. However, we are even getting beyond this right now aren't we.

Go on, try to justify signature strikes to me. Signature strikes for those who don't know are where the identity is unknown and it simply just looks like they might be up to something dodgy i.e. there's no evidence. People on here are somewhat misinformed about the nature of these drone strikes. It is not only civilians in the vicinity of terrorists who are killed, but simply people who fit a pattern. Go on, justify killing someone without evidence. Please, make my day, and fucking justify that for me.

A good post and it highlights two of the biggest problems with modern warfare. Bizarrely, there are rules for warfare which most governments have signed up to. Soldiers of these countries have to follow these rules on how they engage in an “ethical” war.

“Terrorists” ignore these. “Terrorists” do not wear uniforms. “Terrorists” shield themselves with innocent members of the local population; they use women and children not only as shields, but also as weapons, particularly in suicide attacks. They stash weapons, equipment and personnel in schools and medical centres to profit from the press when these places are attacked. They plant shrapnel bombs in packed markets, which are usually filled with women and children.

It is not possible for a modern “ethical” army to fight terrorists and insurgents in a man to man battle. The war is dirty and it is deliberately made so, because for every soldier in the combat area, there is the world press. These “terrorists” are not stupid; they know how to use media to manipulate the situation. Nothing makes you choke on your morning cornflakes more than a dead child on the front page. And if anyone can get rid of or change a government they don’t like, then it’s those people reading that newspaper, the public, the voters.

Which is my second point. There is a very dirty war being fought here, but then war has always been dirty, the only thing that has really changed is the amount of media coverage, now you know it’s dirty, previously you didn’t. You can now ride the actual bomb in on YouTube, right through the house window, you can watch the chain-gun on the Apache attack helicopter rip up the enemy “technicals” in real time, as it happened, body parts and all. There was a recent thread on Bomber Command, when the RAF / USAAF were firebombing the civilian populations of the major German cities in WW2, if the hideous photographs and footage that exist of the aftermath of those raids was circulated everyday in media at the time, I wonder if that would have swayed the actions of the then government?

 

[pominoz]

Are those events the cause of our war or the effect of how terrible the west is towards basically everywhere else? Not to mention I think a lot of people's odd/closed minded views on Islam/Arabs in general probably pushes a lot of non terrorists towards extremism and I can't say I disagree. Don't worry though I'm on the next flight out to get my jihad on

I agree, but what do we do to stop it?
Every country has been fucked over by another, that is the way of the worlds history.
These fanatics are not going to stop until they have what they want ( an Islamist world, where we conform or die), and i am talking about the fanatics, not normal Muslims. What do we do with the fanatics?

The bit I highlighted.....why why why why oh why do you keep saying this?

Because it is the truth, there is an element that will not give up until we do.
Just as there are radical christians that need to be kept an eye on, and fought against.

 

[BoyBlue_1985]

top post, also it is nice to be back on subject.

The guys that makes those drones are billionaires now

The war on 'terror' has made a lot of men very rich. Makes you think.

I read something on why the world needs war especially capitalism. That's another legacy from WW2 as well

 

[Josh Blue]

I agree, but what do we do to stop it?
Every country has been fucked over by another, that is the way of the worlds history.
These fanatics are not going to stop until they have what they want ( an Islamist world, where we conform or die), and i am talking about the fanatics, not normal Muslims. What do we do with the fanatics?

The bit I highlighted.....why why why why oh why do you keep saying this?

Because it is the truth, there is an element that will not give up until we do.
Just as there are radical christians that need to be kept an eye on, and fought against.

Yes but these nutters are no threat. You need to realise they are a minority and have nothing to do with any major terror attack.