Studs up, high tackle, red card. Correct to send him off. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Eh, I think you'll find Manchester United lost a match
By Martin Samuel - Debate
PUBLISHED: 15:27, 7 March 2013 | UPDATED: 20:37, 7 March 2013
On the way to Old Trafford on Tuesday, I fell into conversation with a father and his daughter. They watched the Sky breakfast discussion programme Sunday Supplement, they said, but didn’t always agree with what the journalists said about their club. I protested that we were always praising Manchester United.
'That’s what I mean,' said the daughter. 'We’ve been rubbish this season.'
'Did you see us against Norwich on Saturday,' echoed her dad. 'Terrible.'
'But you won 4-0,' I said.
'Yes, but on Match of the Day that’s all they showed,' the daughter insisted. 'Just the goals. We didn’t do anything else the entire game.'
And, maybe, just maybe, those two left the defeat by Real Madrid, shaking their heads and conceding that Nani probably deserved it – but they would be in the minority. A spirited debate then, provoked by the match report of Manchester United’s defeat by Real Madrid (the link is in the green box if you need a reminder).
It gets a bit heavier. So let’s start with a decent joke and a song.
Sir Alex got it wrong this time. To rest Wayne Rooney is understandable but to rest Howard Webb unforgivable. Ruby Jay, Nigeria
This crack was first made by Noel Gallagher. But it does make me laugh. And I’m not a big Oasis fan. So just for that, here’s another little belter from Nigeria. Take it away, Fela, lad.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdV1V4vPPLI&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Only anti Manchester United fans say that Nani deserved red. If it had happened to any other team they would say it was unjust. Forget your hatred and stop pretending. Stop saying stupid things like United were played off the park. Admit that but for one poor decision the scoreline could have been very different. Red Army ICJ, Docklands
Ooh, bossy, isn’t he? I bet he’s a colonel in that Red Army of his.
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Sir Alex Ferguson was so busy having a fit he forgot to manage his team. Sharper9, London
Certainly, it may have been of more use to regroup and react to Jose Mourinho’s introduction of Luka Modric than berate the fourth official for several minutes.
'Fancy Dan' winger? This is the reason why England produce so few flair players because they are labelled fancy dan, twinkle toes, namby pamby and other effeminate names. What would you rather have? Strong, industrious, brave players, who cannot control the ball to save their lives?
Ronnie83, London
I wasn’t aware those were the only options, Ron. Can’t a player be skilful but also industrious and strong? Cristiano Ronaldo seems to manage it. I wasn’t having a go an Nani, merely pointing out that he was not the type of player whose absence would put United at a huge defensive disadvantage. Put it like this, I would imagine Sir Alex has never shouted, ‘It’s backs to the wall, lads, let’s get
Nani on.’
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Nani’s foot was high and narrowly missed Arbeloa’s ribs. Then he decided to play the injured party. It was a blatant red card. Just remember Mark Clattenburg at Stamford Bridge. Now that was the real football injustice. Chelsea would have gone seven points clear had we won and that game started our downfall. I am still bitter about it. BlueLondon4Ever, London
Manchester United are a better team than Chelsea, so I’m not sure Clattenburg changed the title race, but I think the Fernando Torres sending off was worse than that of Nani, simply because more guesswork was involved, plus a false presumption of cheating. I also think losing a goalscoring threat – and I do appreciate the irony here – is more problematic than losing a winger. If United are trying to shore up a game, Nani is usually the type of player they bring off. That was my point.
It must be terrible for any football fan that the only joy they get out of the sport is celebrating an injustice to a far superior team. They love to gloat when Manchester United slip up because, let’s face it, their own team whether Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool, give them absolutely nothing to cheer about the vast majority of times. It’s like Quasimodo laughing at Brad Pitt when he gets a spot on his chin. We United fans love your bitterness. We don’t gloat at your teams' failings because you are not important in our lives. Walter Wallcarpet, Warrington
Sort of stepped on your own point by posting there, Wal
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I'd like to see the comments if it had been Pepe. Carlos, Madrid
I think they would have been different.
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Once again Rio Ferdinand finished the game in disgrace, clapping his hands in the face of the referee. I cannot stand this vile man. Lee Tyler, Newcastle upon Tyne
That’s strange because he speaks very highly of you.
Studs up, high tackle, red card. Correct to send him off. Not sure what the fuss is about.
Essexandy, Brentwood
I think you’ll find Manchester United lost a match.
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If Nani's assault was accidental, why didn't he get up and apologise, instead of feigning injury and wasting time? Dave, Edinburgh
Because he knew he’d make a mistake, Dave. He just didn’t expect such severe consequences.
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I wish people would stop going on about Nani having his eyes on the ball. That doesn’t matter. Intent isn't in the rule. The ref had to decide if it was dangerous and reckless and when you look at his angle on the replay, the flick and height of Nani’s boot, you can see why he thought it was a red. David, Reading
I think people talk about where Nani was looking because it is a clue to his intention, and while intent isn’t in the rulebook it shapes our view of moral justice. So Chris Morgan of Sheffield United checking to see where Iain Hume of Barnsley was before elbowing him is a clue that his assault was no accident. Nani was watching the ball, and I know that is irrelevant, but if he had been looking straight at Arbeloa before going in like that with his studs up and high, the case against him would have been unequivocal.
Perhaps Samuel should do an article on the ethics of a Champions League referee who follows Real Madrid on Twitter and then officiates in one of their games. Surely that isn't right? Mike, Belfast
Doesn’t he also follow Barcelona? I’m not on Twitter myself but I do notice that some of my colleagues in the press box follow football clubs. It doesn’t mean they support them, though. It just means they are interested in football.
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It was a collision, there was no intent and thus it wasn't a red card. The stupidest decision a referee has taken in recent times. SoccerMyLife, India
If soccer is your life, mate, you really should know the rules. The entire premise for this post is bogus.
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I was most shocked by Jose Mourinho's comment that the best team lost. He really wants that Manchester United job, doesn't he? Chelsea fans who think Rafa Benitez is just holding his place, take note. Zorrin, Reading
I almost expected him to take Sir Alex Ferguson’s place at the press conference. And, yes, his much predicted return to Chelsea looks a little further away after such a naked PR exercise.
Every team goes on to the pitch with a game plan. This plan depends on the availability of all 11 players. Manchester United’s plan was perfect until the red card. That delivered a psychological and physical blow to United because Nani was playing very well. Ksupuwood, Liberia
Ah, how nice. Football explained, for the idiots. We know all of this, thanks. There is a tactical scheme. A red card can necessitate change. So I have a question back. This perfect plan that United were executing? Did it involve Sergio Ramos, the best defender on the field, sticking the ball in his own net - because Sir Alex Ferguson really is a genius if he plotted that to happen? Or was it just some random event that occurs in sporting contests, requiring adjustment to new circumstances? Like a sending-off.
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Well, this is the turning point of the season. Chelsea will give United a good beating in the FA Cup, and Manchester City will win the title again. Maurice, London
The anti-freeze goes in your car, Maurice, not in your mouth. In your car.
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All this eyes-on-the-ball stuff is irrelevant. The only offence that mentions any form of intent is handball, all others just have to be a foul. A heart-high, stud-first challenge in any league is usually given as a foul and it is the referee's call how serious he thinks it is. He can take intent into consideration if he wants, or not. Post dismissal, United were a shambles with Mourinho instantly spotting the right tactical ploy and ruthlessly honing in on it. Nobody closed down Modric after he came on, and as well as his brilliant goal he was given free licence to stand five yards from the D spraying passes around. This is something that Sir Alex would never have allowed when Modric was at Tottenham Hotspur, 10 against 11 or not. Nogbad T Bad, Aberdeen
I travelled back to London with Roy Hodgson after the match and he made the very good point that sometimes when a controversial decision is made, the players end up playing the emotion of the situation rather than what is in front of them. He cited Michael Carrick as an example, enjoying a fine, sensible, controlled game until the red card, and then diving in and completely selling himself on Modric for the first goal. He said he probably wouldn’t have done that 10 minutes earlier. I’m inclined to agree.
I love football but this is the last time I will watch the Champions League. Himmelblo, Luxembourg
Well, you’ll miss a fine tournament this season then. Borussia Dortmund, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus, one of AC Milan and Barcelona. These are exciting teams. The competition will do just fine without Manchester United or other English representation in the quarter-finals. It had to happen sooner or later.
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Well done Daily Mail. You hate to see Manchester United win and instead of writing what everybody is saying (the game was ruined when the referee sent off Nani) you just stick in your knife. Are you happy now there are no English teams left in the Champions League? I always buy the Mail but am getting really sick of the rubbish you spout about United. That's the British press for you. I might have to stop reading this paper until someone who is impartial is brought in to report football. I would never buy The Sun but their football reporters knock the Mail into touch. CarolynC, Manchester
Carolyn, if you never buy The Sun, how do you know their soccer reporters are better?
Norman Churcher, Hastings
Oh, Norman, you little scamp. Injecting reason into a perfectly illogical argument. Carolyn is correct. Why don’t we just write what everybody else thinks? Independent thought is so over-rated, don’t you find? Although this next bloke it taking it a little far.
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I wonder what the total value of the players fielded was? Bradford City versus Swansea City provided far better entertainment at a fraction of the price. Scissle, Bradford
No it didn’t.
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Amazing how many Liverpool supporters are writing on here with such delight. Well, now that English clubs are falling from their previous heights it will be only three teams qualifying for the Champions League very soon and their glee will soon turn to despair as they move ever further from being able to qualify. George, Preston
Not just Liverpool have reason to fear that day, George.
Never mind, at least Manchester United always finish in the top three. When we lose that fourth spot in Europe, two from Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham will miss out. Tracey, Bristol
Who knew that United’s progress in Europe was a purely altruistic exercise to help more of their fellow clubs qualify? Fair brings a tear to this cynical eye.
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Rio Ferdinand clapping in the referee's face – how very grown up. He should have been sent off as well or more appropriately, sent to sit on the naughty step like a child. Demmie, North Yorkshire
Isn’t that what a sin bin is, sport’s equivalent of the naughty step? Great idea, by the way. If they’re really bad they could be sent to an executive box without any prawn sandwiches.
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No mention that the free-kick should have gone the other way as Arbeloa controlled the ball with his arm and should have got a yellow. He was already on one and could have gone. Nani’s was never a sending off either. If it was then the goalkeeper who punched Nemanja Vidic should also have gone for dangerous play. Dave, Dumbarton
And Madrid’s goal that was disallowed for an arm on the shoulder when coming down from a jump, not climbing up, was definitely correct, and the handball on the goal line by Rafael was entirely fair and… In poor old Dave’s world, United actually won. He’s probably already bought his tickets for Wembley. He’ll be ever so disappointed on May 25.
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Search ‘Emmanuel Eboue sending off versus Manchester United’ on YouTube. Were the United fans up in arms then? Dorset G, Dorset
Done that, Dorset. A fair point.
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Martin Samuel, I would remind you that you can clearly see Nani watching the ball very carefully until just before he impacts with it, at which point this other clown comes hurtling into view, thrusting his body into a space where he should not go at very high speed. I would not have even have given a yellow card but judged it 50-50. The Spaniard was lucky he did not do himself an injury, silly man.
H. Worth, Bolton
Ah, the old trick of deliberately rib-caging the sole of an opponents’ boot. They’ll try anything these dastardly dagos.
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I think Sir Alex Ferguson’s reaction and massive disappointment told us that he is leaving at the end of the season and was desperate to win the Champions League one last time. Andy, Wigan
Interesting thought, Andy. Maybe he thought the way was opening up with Barcelona struggling to go through, too.
Martin Samuel you obviously don’t understand how Europe works my friend. If it is a striker that gets sent off, that means a team is without the player highest up the pitch charging the ball down and filling little gaps to stop the likes of Sergio Ramos, Xabi Alonso and Luka Modric linking up. If it is a winger there is no longer the option to double up on playmakers or wingers, and if you do then somebody needs to come out of position to assist, leaving a gap elsewhere. The fact you say Nani isn’t a defender and so United should have been able to shut up shop for 35 minutes against Real Madrid is utterly humiliating for you as a sports reporter. Manchester United passed the blame, as did 99 per cent of the people who watched the game live. From a strong position to an almost impossible position as a result of referee’s decision. Tomberf, Warrington
To begin with, Tom, I’m not your friend. I don’t have pompous idiots as friends. Thanks for the lesson, but I’ve watched enough football to know what happens when a player gets sent off. Your striker analogy is irrelevant and Madrid’s playmaker wasn’t wide. Well done for identifying that with nine rather than 10 outfield players there is likely to be a little extra space. What coaching manual did you get that one from: the Big Book of the Absolutely Bleedin’ Obvious? If your appraisal was correct every sending off would result in defeat. It doesn’t. The cliché about it being harder to play against 10 men is incorrect, but it comes from the fact that teams regroup, reorganise, half-court press and make the game tighter. Impossible position? Do me a favour. It made it tougher, but not impossible. So thanks for that informative post. This one is for you.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=797Saf5fPN0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Studs up, high tackle, red card. Correct to send him off. Not sure what all the fuss is about. Eh, I think you'll find Manchester United lost a match
By Martin Samuel - Debate
PUBLISHED: 15:27, 7 March 2013 | UPDATED: 20:37, 7 March 2013
* Comments (174)
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On the way to Old Trafford on Tuesday, I fell into conversation with a father and his daughter. They watched the Sky breakfast discussion programme Sunday Supplement, they said, but didn’t always agree with what the journalists said about their club. I protested that we were always praising Manchester United.
'That’s what I mean,' said the daughter. 'We’ve been rubbish this season.'
'Did you see us against Norwich on Saturday,' echoed her dad. 'Terrible.'
'But you won 4-0,' I said.
'Yes, but on Match of the Day that’s all they showed,' the daughter insisted. 'Just the goals. We didn’t do anything else the entire game.'
Manchester United 1 Real Madrid 2
Click HERE to read my match report from Old Trafford on Tuesday night
And, maybe, just maybe, those two left the defeat by Real Madrid, shaking their heads and conceding that Nani probably deserved it – but they would be in the minority. A spirited debate then, provoked by the match report of Manchester United’s defeat by Real Madrid (the link is in the green box if you need a reminder).
It gets a bit heavier. So let’s start with a decent joke and a song.
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Sir Alex got it wrong this time. To rest Wayne Rooney is understandable but to rest Howard Webb unforgivable. Ruby Jay, Nigeria
This crack was first made by Noel Gallagher. But it does make me laugh. And I’m not a big Oasis fan. So just for that, here’s another little belter from Nigeria. Take it away, Fela, lad.
Only anti Manchester United fans say that Nani deserved red. If it had happened to any other team they would say it was unjust. Forget your hatred and stop pretending. Stop saying stupid things like United were played off the park. Admit that but for one poor decision the scoreline could have been very different. Red Army ICJ, Docklands
Ooh, bossy, isn’t he? I bet he’s a colonel in that Red Army of his.
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Sir Alex Ferguson was so busy having a fit he forgot to manage his team. Sharper9, London
Certainly, it may have been of more use to regroup and react to Jose Mourinho’s introduction of Luka Modric than berate the fourth official for several minutes.
Kicking off: This challenge earned Nani a red card - and sparked another entertaining debate on these pages
Kicking off: This challenge earned Nani a red card - and sparked another entertaining debate on these pages
'Fancy Dan' winger? This is the reason why England produce so few flair players because they are labelled fancy dan, twinkle toes, namby pamby and other effeminate names. What would you rather have? Strong, industrious, brave players, who cannot control the ball to save their lives?
Ronnie83, London
I wasn’t aware those were the only options, Ron. Can’t a player be skilful but also industrious and strong? Cristiano Ronaldo seems to manage it. I wasn’t having a go an Nani, merely pointing out that he was not the type of player whose absence would put United at a huge defensive disadvantage. Put it like this, I would imagine Sir Alex has never shouted, ‘It’s backs to the wall, lads, let’s get
Nani on.’
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Nani’s foot was high and narrowly missed Arbeloa’s ribs. Then he decided to play the injured party. It was a blatant red card. Just remember Mark Clattenburg at Stamford Bridge. Now that was the real football injustice. Chelsea would have gone seven points clear had we won and that game started our downfall. I am still bitter about it. BlueLondon4Ever, London
Manchester United are a better team than Chelsea, so I’m not sure Clattenburg changed the title race, but I think the Fernando Torres sending off was worse than that of Nani, simply because more guesswork was involved, plus a false presumption of cheating. I also think losing a goalscoring threat – and I do appreciate the irony here – is more problematic than losing a winger. If United are trying to shore up a game, Nani is usually the type of player they bring off. That was my point.
It had started so well: Nani was celebrating after Sergio Ramos gifted United the lead with an own goal
It had started so well: Nani was celebrating after Sergio Ramos gifted United the lead with an own goal
It must be terrible for any football fan that the only joy they get out of the sport is celebrating an injustice to a far superior team. They love to gloat when Manchester United slip up because, let’s face it, their own team whether Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea or Liverpool, give them absolutely nothing to cheer about the vast majority of times. It’s like Quasimodo laughing at Brad Pitt when he gets a spot on his chin. We United fans love your bitterness. We don’t gloat at your teams' failings because you are not important in our lives. Walter Wallcarpet, Warrington
Sort of stepped on your own point by posting there, Wal
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I'd like to see the comments if it had been Pepe. Carlos, Madrid
I think they would have been different.
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Once again Rio Ferdinand finished the game in disgrace, clapping his hands in the face of the referee. I cannot stand this vile man. Lee Tyler, Newcastle upon Tyne
That’s strange because he speaks very highly of you.
Dismissed: Ref Cuneyt Cakir turned the red half of Manchester against him by waving a card the same colour
Dismissed: Ref Cuneyt Cakir turned the red half of Manchester against him by waving a card the same colour
Studs up, high tackle, red card. Correct to send him off. Not sure what the fuss is about.
Essexandy, Brentwood
I think you’ll find Manchester United lost a match.
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If Nani's assault was accidental, why didn't he get up and apologise, instead of feigning injury and wasting time? Dave, Edinburgh
Because he knew he’d make a mistake, Dave. He just didn’t expect such severe consequences.
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I wish people would stop going on about Nani having his eyes on the ball. That doesn’t matter. Intent isn't in the rule. The ref had to decide if it was dangerous and reckless and when you look at his angle on the replay, the flick and height of Nani’s boot, you can see why he thought it was a red. David, Reading
I think people talk about where Nani was looking because it is a clue to his intention, and while intent isn’t in the rulebook it shapes our view of moral justice. So Chris Morgan of Sheffield United checking to see where Iain Hume of Barnsley was before elbowing him is a clue that his assault was no accident. Nani was watching the ball, and I know that is irrelevant, but if he had been looking straight at Arbeloa before going in like that with his studs up and high, the case against him would have
been unequivocal.
Head in hands: Nani was shocked after receiving his marching orders from the Turkish referee
Head in hands: Nani was shocked after receiving his marching orders from the Turkish referee
Perhaps Samuel should do an article on the ethics of a Champions League referee who follows Real Madrid on Twitter and then officiates in one of their games. Surely that isn't right? Mike, Belfast
Doesn’t he also follow Barcelona? I’m not on Twitter myself but I do notice that some of my colleagues in the press box follow football clubs. It doesn’t mean they support them, though. It just means they are interested in football.
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It was a collision, there was no intent and thus it wasn't a red card. The stupidest decision a referee has taken in recent times. SoccerMyLife, India
If soccer is your life, mate, you really should know the rules. The entire premise for this post is bogus.
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I was most shocked by Jose Mourinho's comment that the best team lost. He really wants that Manchester United job, doesn't he? Chelsea fans who think Rafa Benitez is just holding his place, take note. Zorrin, Reading
I almost expected him to take Sir Alex Ferguson’s place at the press conference. And, yes, his much predicted return to Chelsea looks a little further away after such a naked PR exercise.
Backed by the boss: United manager Sir Alex Ferguson was also fuming after Nani walked
Backed by the boss: United manager Sir Alex Ferguson was also fuming after Nani walked
Every team goes on to the pitch with a game plan. This plan depends on the availability of all 11 players. Manchester United’s plan was perfect until the red card. That delivered a psychological and physical blow to United because Nani was playing very well. Ksupuwood, Liberia
Ah, how nice. Football explained, for the idiots. We know all of this, thanks. There is a tactical scheme. A red card can necessitate change. So I have a question back. This perfect plan that United were executing? Did it involve Sergio Ramos, the best defender on the field, sticking the ball in his own net - because Sir Alex Ferguson really is a genius if he plotted that to happen? Or was it just some random event that occurs in sporting contests, requiring adjustment to new circumstances? Like a sending-off.
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Well, this is the turning point of the season. Chelsea will give United a good beating in the FA Cup, and Manchester City will win the title again. Maurice, London
The anti-freeze goes in your car, Maurice, not in your mouth. In your car.
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All this eyes-on-the-ball stuff is irrelevant. The only offence that mentions any form of intent is handball, all others just have to be a foul. A heart-high, stud-first challenge in any league is usually given as a foul and it is the referee's call how serious he thinks it is. He can take intent into consideration if he wants, or not. Post dismissal, United were a shambles with Mourinho instantly spotting the right tactical ploy and ruthlessly honing in on it. Nobody closed down Modric after he came on, and as well as his brilliant goal he was given free licence to stand five yards from the D spraying passes around. This is something that Sir Alex would never have allowed when Modric was at Tottenham Hotspur, 10 against 11 or not. Nogbad T Bad, Aberdeen
I travelled back to London with Roy Hodgson after the match and he made the very good point that sometimes when a controversial decision is made, the players end up playing the emotion of the situation rather than what is in front of them. He cited Michael Carrick as an example, enjoying a fine, sensible, controlled game until the red card, and then diving in and completely selling himself on Modric for the first goal. He said he probably wouldn’t have done that 10 minutes earlier. I’m inclined to agree.
I'll have a go: Old Trafford veteran Ryan Giggs also had plenty to say to the official after Nani's early exit
I'll have a go: Old Trafford veteran Ryan Giggs also had plenty to say to the official after Nani's early exit
I love football but this is the last time I will watch the Champions League. Himmelblo, Luxembourg
Well, you’ll miss a fine tournament this season then. Borussia Dortmund, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Juventus, one of AC Milan and Barcelona. These are exciting teams. The competition will do just fine without Manchester United or other English representation in the quarter-finals. It had to happen sooner or later.
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Well done Daily Mail. You hate to see Manchester United win and instead of writing what everybody is saying (the game was ruined when the referee sent off Nani) you just stick in your knife. Are you happy now there are no English teams left in the Champions League? I always buy the Mail but am getting really sick of the rubbish you spout about United. That's the British press for you. I might have to stop reading this paper until someone who is impartial is brought in to report football. I would never buy The Sun but their football reporters knock the Mail into touch. CarolynC, Manchester
Carolyn, if you never buy The Sun, how do you know their soccer reporters are better?
Norman Churcher, Hastings
Oh, Norman, you little scamp. Injecting reason into a perfectly illogical argument. Carolyn is correct. Why don’t we just write what everybody else thinks? Independent thought is so over-rated, don’t you find? Although this next bloke it taking it a little far.
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I wonder what the total value of the players fielded was? Bradford City versus Swansea City provided far better entertainment at a fraction of the price. Scissle, Bradford
No it didn’t.
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Amazing how many Liverpool supporters are writing on here with such delight. Well, now that English clubs are falling from their previous heights it will be only three teams qualifying for the Champions League very soon and their glee will soon turn to despair as they move ever further from being able to qualify. George, Preston
Not just Liverpool have reason to fear that day, George.
Taking advantage: Jose Mourinho had some sympathy for Nani - but the Real Madrid boss marched on
Taking advantage: Jose Mourinho had some sympathy for Nani - but the Real Madrid boss marched on
Never mind, at least Manchester United always finish in the top three. When we lose that fourth spot in Europe, two from Manchester City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham will miss out. Tracey, Bristol
Who knew that United’s progress in Europe was a purely altruistic exercise to help more of their fellow clubs qualify? Fair brings a tear to this cynical eye.
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Rio Ferdinand clapping in the referee's face – how very grown up. He should have been sent off as well or more appropriately, sent to sit on the naughty step like a child. Demmie, North Yorkshire
Isn’t that what a sin bin is, sport’s equivalent of the naughty step? Great idea, by the way. If they’re really bad they could be sent to an executive box without any prawn sandwiches.
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No mention that the free-kick should have gone the other way as Arbeloa controlled the ball with his arm and should have got a yellow. He was already on one and could have gone. Nani’s was never a sending off either. If it was then the goalkeeper who punched Nemanja Vidic should also have gone for dangerous play. Dave, Dumbarton
And Madrid’s goal that was disallowed for an arm on the shoulder when coming down from a jump, not climbing up, was definitely correct, and the handball on the goal line by Rafael was entirely fair and… In poor old Dave’s world, United actually won. He’s probably already bought his tickets for Wembley. He’ll be ever so disappointed on May 25.
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Search ‘Emmanuel Eboue sending off versus Manchester United’ on YouTube. Were the United fans up in arms then? Dorset G, Dorset
Done that, Dorset. A fair point.
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Martin Samuel, I would remind you that you can clearly see Nani watching the ball very carefully until just before he impacts with it, at which point this other clown comes hurtling into view, thrusting his body into a space where he should not go at very high speed. I would not have even have given a yellow card but judged it 50-50. The Spaniard was lucky he did not do himself an injury, silly man.
H. Worth, Bolton
Ah, the old trick of deliberately rib-caging the sole of an opponents’ boot. They’ll try anything these dastardly dagos.
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I think Sir Alex Ferguson’s reaction and massive disappointment told us that he is leaving at the end of the season and was desperate to win the Champions League one last time. Andy, Wigan
Interesting thought, Andy. Maybe he thought the way was opening up with Barcelona struggling to go through, too.
Martin Samuel you obviously don’t understand how Europe works my friend. If it is a striker that gets sent off, that means a team is without the player highest up the pitch charging the ball down and filling little gaps to stop the likes of Sergio Ramos, Xabi Alonso and Luka Modric linking up. If it is a winger there is no longer the option to double up on playmakers or wingers, and if you do then somebody needs to come out of position to assist, leaving a gap elsewhere. The fact you say Nani isn’t a defender and so United should have been able to shut up shop for 35 minutes against Real Madrid is utterly humiliating for you as a sports reporter. Manchester United passed the blame, as did 99 per cent of the people who watched the game live. From a strong position to an almost impossible position as a result of referee’s decision. Tomberf, Warrington
To begin with, Tom, I’m not your friend. I don’t have pompous idiots as friends. Thanks for the lesson, but I’ve watched enough football to know what happens when a player gets sent off. Your striker analogy is irrelevant and Madrid’s playmaker wasn’t wide. Well done for identifying that with nine rather than 10 outfield players there is likely to be a little extra space. What coaching manual did you get that one from: the Big Book of the Absolutely Bleedin’ Obvious? If your appraisal was correct every sending off would result in defeat. It doesn’t. The cliché about it being harder to play against 10 men is incorrect, but it comes from the fact that teams regroup, reorganise, half-court press and make the game tighter. Impossible position? Do me a favour. It made it tougher, but not impossible. So thanks for that informative post. This one is for you.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=797Saf5fPN0&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]
Surely a man of your football writing experience would have a better understanding of the game without having the obvious and basic flaws in your comments exposed. Nani kept Arbeloa in check, starved him of space and tracked back when Real attacked but more obviously when United had possession he prevented Arbeloa being too adventurous. Once Nani was sent off it was always going to be an uphill struggle for United because with the extra man there was more space and they had the quality to exploit it. No coincidence the winner came down Nani's side of the pitch.
Dan, Manchester
Yes, and the moment after Nani was dismissed, Jose Mourinho exploited this freedom for Arbeloa by…taking him off. We do get them on here, really we do. And as if to prove my point…
Should bicycle kicks be banned then? Rooney should have been sent off for dangerous play when he scored his wonder goal against Manchester City then, according to UEFA’s rule book.
Albertini, Manchester
No, because he kicked the ball into the net, not a player in the ribs. You see the difference?
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It wasn't a dangerous challenge - his foot was high, yes, but they both jumped. Nani was watching the ball and when he made contact he didn't follow through. Dutchy08, Belfast
No, they didn’t both jump. Look at the photograph. And what do you mean, follow through? When Nani’s boot hit Arbeloa’s chest his forward motion stopped. How was he meant to follow through? Where could he have gone?
If only Alex Ferguson had sought Martin Samuel's counsel. Then he would have known what to do. Punt, London
But it can’t be a typo. It’s not even near the C.
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There isn't a football fan on this planet who if their team lost a player in similar circumstances wouldn't feel hard done by. Mark, London
Don’t disagree with that, Mark. But sometimes sport is about the way a team or an individual reacts to injustice or a bad break. England had a good goal disallowed against Germany at the World Cup in 2010. They should have gone in at half-time drawing 2-2, instead they were 2-1 down. That didn’t mean they had to come out in the second half as if they were chasing three goals, go completely gung-ho, and lose 4-1. It showed a lack of intelligence about the game. So yes, Manchester United got a rough call the other night. That isn’t the whole story, though.
The Manchester United players and manager allowed the referee’s decision to get to them. Ferguson and Ryan Giggs, instead of encouraging the crowd to increase the level of booing, should have been marshalling the troops to withstand the inevitable onslaught. This lack of leadership by two of football's greats cost the game, not the referee. HWP, Godalming
I do think we over-emphasise passion in English football, sometimes. I’m not sure Ferguson and Giggs cost the game, but there was certainly harder work to be done than simply asking for more encouragement.
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The real game changer was the introduction of Modric, who played for half-an-hour with a level of passing unseen prior to his introduction and scored a fantastic goal. Once they equalised, Madrid always looked to have enough to go through. Wflynn, Mildenhall
If this was Facebook I’d ‘like’ this. But it’s not.
I agree Nani doesn't contribute in defence generously but the clearance for which he got sent off highlights the fact that he was doing a little bit to take the pressure off. Somebody in defence clears the ball, expecting their will be a team-mate to at least pressurise the opposing team, if not win the ball and slow the game down. Nani did that many times, even leading to counter attacks. Madrid's winner came from Nani’s side. A man down is a disadvantage. If that was dangerous play, then every other overhead kick is dangerous play too. Would Zlatan Ibrahimovic's overhead kick have been regarded as dangerous instead of truly spectacular, had there been a player trying to head it?
Varun Pandey, Bermuda
But no player was trying to head it, Varun. That’s the difference. Right there. It’s not rocket science. An aerial shot in hockey is or isn’t illegal depending on whether it endangers another player. Surely that isn’t so hard to comprehend. And thanks once again for explaining why 11 works better than 10 on the football field. It really hadn’t occurred to me before. I always believed that what a team did was adjust, rather than just leave the space down that side for the other team to score. Thank you for putting me right.
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If you lose your 'fancy dan winger' then obviously someone has to replace him, in this case Danny Welbeck, who was crucial in the middle causing all sorts of problems to Real Madrid.
Robman, Manchester
Except United did not need to cause all sorts of problems to Madrid at that precise moment. In their reduced circumstances they could have settled for trying to block out.
Not sure on your analysis of the defending after the sending off as it was going to extra-time if it had stayed 1-1, and United would have had to score with 10 men and no striker. There are holes in that argument son, think about it. Are you telling me Chelsea would have done better versus Madrid last night? Nah, didn't think so. Salford Red, Salford
Don’t you love it when people put words in your mouth to answer their own questions? Yes, I think Chelsea would have done better. In fact, I saw them do better with 10 men against a better team last year. As for the holes in the prior argument, the main one is that it was 1-0 to United when Nani was sent off, not 1-1. At that moment, United were through, not heading for extra-time.
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Can this guy ever write anything positive about Manchester United? From financial fair play to David Gill’s involvement in Europe or the Football Association, he has a problem with everything.
Vml Vicky, India
No, just with FFP and Gill’s politicking. Not everything. I said I thought it wasn’t the right decision on Nani. I’m just not buying that it guaranteed defeat.
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If I ever I thought that your articles were gibberish, it pales into insignificance to now. Martin, I can now only allow myself a wry smile at the workings of your brain. I'll leave it at that. Nick, Burnham
Oh, why Nick? I love posts accusing me of writing gibberish that begin with the phrase ‘If I ever I thought…’ It saves bothering to write gags myself.
I started supporting Manchester United when I was about six or seven. I was watching Brian Robson playing with his busted shoulder, still sliding in for tackles. I was then sold on MUFC and have supported them ever since during the highs and the lows. Today is a low but not because of the team. I was very proud of them fighting till the end of a game decided by a referee. And a big thank you to Cristiano Ronaldo for showing respect in not celebrating the winning goal.
MUFC4eva, Brisbane
You see, sometimes I just don’t know. If I was going to subvert a message board deliberately I would definitely claim to be a loyal Manchester United fan, from Australia, talk about highs and lows yet give a date that made it plain I had known mainly highs, and I would then spell Bryan Robson with an ‘I’. So I don’t know if this is a serious post or not. If this is one of my mates, just stop it. This column is time consuming enough as it is, without hoaxes.
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That stupid ref has to go and work in a kebab shop. KingzPeach, London
A big shout out to all the racists there, from KingzPeach. And now a moment of sober, eloquent reflection
If you are a Manchester United fan there is not much point in commenting on the game as every post across every article on this website defending United, has nothing but negative ratings. It is quite terrible that the average person would rather see Real Madrid go through on a silly decision, rather than support those who play for their national team. Chrisleecleary, Dublin
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Zeppelin8, Liverpool
Well, both sides of the debate represented in those posts I think. And 10 minutes of Fela at the start for good measure. You don’t get value like that from lesser brand websites you know.
Thanks for playing, one and all. Until next time.
