Ref Watch City Games - 2023/24

It ultimately all boils down to the third error in the ones you referenced earlier. If he doesn’t do that, then you’d be praising him, not thinking the other two were errors at all.

So focussing on that error, he blows his whistle when the ball is crossing the half way line, he initiates blowing his whistle even before that. At that point, if you really think every error is benefitting Spurs, then it’s because even then, he knows that Grealish is going to be through on goal and end up with a good goal scoring chance.

At that point, the likelihood to me is far more the other way. He's seeing three defenders in close proximity to the player receiving the ball and a player playing a through ball whilst off balance.

What he should have done is wait longer and then make the decision. That he didn’t is a huge error. I think he did that because the point he whistled, he thought it more likely Spurs would recover the ball and didn’t want that to happen before he called it back for the foul.

For your explanation to be right, he’d have to be a bloody amazing actor given his reaction after it as well as showing a very high level of competence and decision making in minimal time in order to screw us over for what would have been still a fairly low xG to use your earlier reference at best. I just don’t see that as a most probable explanation at all, not when you see errors and examples of incompetence seen all the time in virtually every match.

That and you go on any ref forum and they’ll say they’ve made the same mistake themselves, it’s entirely understandable
to them, albeit not forgivable at the level he’s at.

Hes still getting absolute pelters on it and deservedly so. The most probable explanation is incompetence though and I’m pretty sure you really know that yourself.

To say again, I say most probable. Anyone that thinks he did it intentionally, you’re perfectly entitled to that view too.

Your logic is flawed. You say incompetence is the most probable explanation, but the most probable explanation is the one where you don't have to invent facts to fit the theory.

If it is a mistake: (a) this requires an explanation of why he even considered playing an advantage after Haaland had been fouled. He recovered his feet, yes, but was still in his own half, had few passing options available, was facing away from goal and travelling in the general direction of his own corner flag. Eight or nine times out of ten (my own broad assessment) you don't actually see any advantage arising in those situations. So his reasons for viewing that as a potential advantage are highly surprising for an elite level ref

(b) it also requires an explanation of why he appeared to signal that he was playing an advantage when, according to Webb, he didn't intend to do so. This is an elite level referee who has years of experience behind him and is judged (amongst other things) on his ability to communicate effectively. It is possible that somebody well used to using simultaneous hand gestures to indicate the reason for a decision made such a gesture without actually meaning to, but it is pretty exceptional. I cannot think of another example of any referee at elite level doing this ever. Maybe you can.

Simultaneous with the hand gesture was him not blowing his whistle at that point. Initially when the challenge was made, the ref put his whistle towards his mouth but then drew back from blowing. Whether he had decided to play the advantage at that point or whether he was waiting and seeing, the impact of that was clearly that Haaland thought he was playing on, that is obvious from his actions in getting up and playing the pass and his reaction to the whistle being blown only after he had put Grealish through on goal. Whether he says 'play on' or not, the context of his actions clearly led Haaland at least (not to mention 50,000 supporters in the stand) to believe he had either decided to play an advantage or was waiting and seeing. If he had decided to penalise the foul, these actions are inexplicable. On any view, signalling something that you didn't intend to signal is a major error.

(c) It also requires an explanation of why, if the explanation is that he was waiting to see if an advantage accrued, he didn't then wait to see if any advantage accrued. If the 'wait and see' explanation is correct, it beggars belief that he allowed play to develop while Haaland was recovering his feet but then blew up when he had done so and had executed the pass. You have said that he blew because he thought it likely Spurs would recover the ball. That is just inventing a reason. There is absolutely no evidence that this is why he blew. That suggestion is no more and no less speculation than the thought that the Spurs defenders would have caught up with Grealish, or that Grealish was offside, or whatever. You have also said he would not have wanted to bring the game back for the foul if Spurs recovered possession. Again, this is inventing excuses for why he did not wait and see whether an advantage would develop. I agree that if he doesn't commit the third error we probably don't look at the other two, but that doesn't mean they weren't errors. But if they were errors, they were absolute stinkers.

So the 'incompetence' theory involves coming up with explanations for these three major errors, each of which was committed within a very short period of time, each of which benefitted the offending team, each of which was committed by this elite level referee with years of experience behind him.

The 'incompetence' theory also requires an explanation of why, when other high profile errors see referees being 'rested' in the EPL the following week, this one is simply waved through as 'human error.' The reaction on his face is consistent with him making a mistake, but it's equally consistent with the knowledge that he reversed a decision when he should not have done so. Either way, the reaction you mention was not surprising. This is simply confirmation bias at work.

The only other plausible explanation is that he initially played an advantage (which he signalled) and then changed his mind. That is precisely what it looked like in real time, it is precisely what it looked like on the replay, and it requires zero facts to be invented to fit the theory.

Why he changed his mind is a different question.
 
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Your logic is flawed. You say incompetence is the most probable explanation, but the most probable explanation is the one where you don't have to invent facts to fit the theory.

If it is a mistake: (a) this requires an explanation of why he even considered playing an advantage after Haaland had been fouled. He recovered his feet, yes, but was still in his own half, had few passing options available, was facing away from goal and travelling in the general direction of his own corner flag. Eight or nine times out of ten (my own broad assessment) you don't actually see any advantage arising in those situations. So his reasons for viewing that

(b) it also requires an explanation of why he appeared to signal that he was playing an advantage when, according to Webb, he didn't intend to do so. This is an elite level referee who has years of experience behind him and is judged (amongst other things) on his ability to communicate effectively. It is possible that somebody well used to using simultaneous hand gestures to indicate the reason for a decision made such a gesture without actually meaning to, but it is pretty exceptional. I cannot think of another example of any referee at elite level doing this ever. Maybe you can.

Simultaneous with the hand gesture was him not blowing his whistle at that point. Initially when the challenge was made, the ref put his whistle towards his mouth but then drew back from blowing. Whether he had decided to play the advantage at that point or whether he was waiting and seeing, the impact of that was clearly that Haaland thought he was playing on, that is obvious from his actions in getting up and playing the pass and his reaction to the whistle being blown only after he had put Grealish through on goal. Whether he says 'play on' or not, the context of his actions clearly led Haaland at least (not to mention 50,000 supporters in the stand) to believe he had either decided to play an advantage or was waiting and seeing. If he had decided to penalise the foul, these actions are inexplicable. On any view, signalling something that you didn't intend to signal is a major error.

(c) It also requires an explanation of why, if the explanation is that he was waiting to see if an advantage accrued, he didn't then wait to see if any advantage accrued. If the 'wait and see' explanation is correct, it beggars belief that he allowed play to develop while Haaland was recovering his feet but then blew up when he had done so and had executed the pass. You have said that he blew because he thought it likely Spurs would recover the ball. That is just inventing a reason. There is absolutely no evidence that this is why he blew. That suggestion is no more and no less speculation than the thought that the Spurs defenders would have caught up with Grealish, or that Grealish was offside, or whatever. You have also said he would not have wanted to bring the game back for the foul if Spurs recovered possession. Again, this is inventing excuses for why he did not wait and see whether an advantage would develop. I agree that if he doesn't commit the third error we probably don't look at the other two, but that doesn't mean they weren't errors. But if they were errors, they were absolute stinkers.

So the 'incompetence' theory involves coming up with explanations for these three major errors, each of which was committed within a very short period of time, each of which benefitted the offending team, each of which was committed by this elite level referee with years of experience behind him.

The 'incompetence' theory also requires an explanation of why, when other high profile errors see referees being 'rested' in the EPL the following week, this one is simply waved through as 'human error.' The reaction on his face is consistent with him making a mistake, but it's equally consistent with the knowledge that he reversed a decision when he should not have done so. Either way, the reaction you mention was not surprising. This is simply confirmation bias at work.

The only other plausible explanation is that he initially played an advantage (which he signalled) and then changed his mind. That is precisely what it looked like in real time, it is precisely what it looked like on the replay, and it requires zero facts to be invented to fit the theory.

Why he changed his mind is a different question.

Exactly ^
 
Great, so neither of us is Howard Webb.

Now, given that I’ve already said that I’d sack him tomorrow, we haven’t really moved the debate anywhere, have we?

The debate is why are City fans inventing excuses that Webb hasn’t provided & goes against what we all saw. The only responses are believe Webb or disbelieve.

I disbelieve that the referee did not play advantage & wasn’t aware what he was making a hand signal.
 
The debate is why are City fans inventing excuses that Webb hasn’t provided & goes against what we all saw. The only responses are believe Webb or disbelieve.

I disbelieve that the referee did not play advantage & wasn’t aware what he was making a hand signal.
No one is. None of us know Hooper’s thought process, so people are speculating how he got to his decision.

I think it’s a crap decision and others believe it is bent. Nobody believes it was a reflex. I think we’re all in agreement that it was a deliberate action.

Neither can be proven.
 
Up against it this weekend with the Red Top loving trio on our game:
Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Richard West, Scott Ledger. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Ian Hussin.

Arsenal have that useless ref who let Luton kick the hell out of us, lets see how many fouls he lets go on them as he did us
 
Webb "he decides to penalise just at the moment when the ball is about to go".

Webb is blatantly lying here. As an ex referee, he must have an eye for the detail. As such he must know full well that Hooper blew a good second or so AFTER the ball was played, not before it was about to go.

By saying what he has said, that is the version of events that most people will remember, even if they saw the footage.

It's a wider concern really, we live in worrying times where verbal narrative added over actual visual evidence can be historically recorded as the truth rather than what people's eyes are seeing. Great example is Shrek's overhead shin against us. Everyone knows and can see it was a shin from the visuals. However, pundits at the time lauded it as a perfect overhead kick, to this day most people actually believe he made contact with his foot. A false memory was planted by pundits when the reality is there to see.
 
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Up against it this weekend with the Red Top loving trio on our game:
Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Richard West, Scott Ledger. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Ian Hussin.

Arsenal have that useless ref who let Luton kick the hell out of us, lets see how many fouls he lets go on them as he did us
I will be honest and say that i don't mind Tierney...
It's the VAR official that worries me a lot more..
 
I will be honest and say that i don't mind Tierney...
It's the VAR official that worries me a lot more..
Tierney at Anfield a couple of seasons back was an utter cnut.
Hopefully he's trying to improve
 

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