Ref Watch

trublue55 said:
GENUINE QUESTION
Referees in general, including yesterdays, and specifically Twatwell, (could name numerous others, but can't leave out Walton) , are they.................

a) corrupt/ bent / cheats
b) incompetent
c) publicity seeking individuals, who want to be the centre of attention.

I HONESTLY cant think of anything else, that could possibly explain the shitstorm that we are currently experiencing.
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That’s because we don’t wear red, if we did it’d be perfectly clear
 
Seem to remember when the rags got every possible decision (2011/12?) before January & built up a healthy lead, we (apparently) had a dossier and had a word. Subsequently the playing field was levelled for the run in, which gave us the glimmer of a chance that we took.

I cant help but suspect something similar this season although I've not seen enough of Arsenal to confirm that conjecture, I just hope that we have a similar outcome.
 
BringBackSwales said:
It’s not just the list time either pal, it’s the complete lack of flow and continuity. Doesn’t seem to be allowed against red teams, but it’s fair game against us
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Last time I saw a table, City were actually near or even possibly at the top for minutes in play this season.

The average for the Premier League is 54.49 minutes. City were up near an hour but can’t remember the exact figure. That Arsenal, Newcastle game the other week by contrast was down at 51.23.

Even that average of less than 55 minutes is higher than Germany, Italy and Spain though. But some people seem to think the answer to all our problems is importing referees from those leagues.
 
trublue55 said:
GENUINE QUESTION
Referees in general, including yesterdays, and specifically Twatwell, (could name numerous others, but can't leave out Walton) , are they.................

a) corrupt/ bent / cheats
b) incompetent
c) publicity seeking individuals, who want to be the centre of attention.

I HONESTLY cant think of anything else, that could possibly explain the shitstorm that we are currently experiencing.
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If people’s minds are made up that it’s A) then I don’t think they can be swayed

B) more likely for me - but with a massive BUT … let’s not forget how tough it is for officials - the play acting, the pressure from the crowd, players appealing everything, the speed of the game, how so many decisions are fractional margins and how subjective decisions will always be - even most weeks pundits agree/disagree on decisions

Also to add everything is more heightened now than ever with social media and talking about refs decisions 24/7 - may only be a couple of bad decisions across all the games but it’s made to feel like all games are being reffed outrageously and getting everything wrong- which isn’t the case

However, no denying some appalling decisions of late, Rashford offside and the Brentford penalty decision and more these last few weeks

C) there’s been a few over the years that I’m sure have enjoyed the limelight and being centre of attention , Riley springs to mind and Clattenburg - but I don’t think majority want to be classed as a ‘corrupt ****’ just for wanting attention

So I’ll sway with B out of them options
 
BlueHammer85 said:
If people’s minds are made up that it’s A) then I don’t think they can be swayed

B) more likely for me - but with a massive BUT … let’s not forget how tough it is for officials - the play acting, the pressure from the crowd, players appealing everything, the speed of the game, how so many decisions are fractional margins and how subjective decisions will always be - even most weeks pundits agree/disagree on decisions

Also to add everything is more heightened now than ever with social media and talking about refs decisions 24/7 - may only be a couple of bad decisions across all the games but it’s made to feel like all games are being reffed outrageously and getting everything wrong- which isn’t the case

However, no denying some appalling decisions of late, Rashford offside and the Brentford penalty decision and more these last few weeks

C) there’s been a few over the years that I’m sure have enjoyed the limelight and being centre of attention , Riley springs to mind and Clattenburg - but I don’t think majority want to be classed as a ‘corrupt ****’ just for wanting attention

So I’ll sway with B out of them options
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Being swayed by the crowd is actually corruption.

You are giving a decision to please the masses for your benefit.

Your job is to perform in difficult circumstances & apply the rules that you see. Using assistants & VAR to support you.

So giving a decision at Anfield to Liverpool that you wouldn’t give at Craven cottage because of the ferocity of the crowd & not being held to account by your management team is 100% corruption.

Adding to that Commentators & newspapers giving a different opinion or even highlighting it depending which team/players is also corruption. This has been used many times to get players banned before important games & was the type of tactic exposed when Juventus were relegated years ago.

Referees have spoken about how they were disciplined by giving decisions against Ferguson / United. Nothing formally but opportunities didn’t come up, passive aggressive & their response once off the naughty step was to never make the same mistake again. The mistake may have been applying the LOTG.
 
BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
VAR is evolving - eventually it will be AI driven and without bias at all. It will be instant. And it will be uniformly applied and inarguably correct.

Until such time, VAR is evolving. Better than pre-VAR right now... but still not at all close to perfect. We've been screwed lately by two VAR/rules bullshit calls (but we won against Wolves anyway so maybe we've been screwed by just one)...

Anyhow - I'm a big fan of VAR - let's eliminate human bias and make things fair. And let's speed up calls so that they're instant with zero need for review. AI will provide this within our lifetime.
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The implementation of AI is very exciting but can you advise if this will be before Anfield & Old Trafford get screens & fix blind spots.

Again, you can have the best technology available but prior to using it if clubs are treated differently based on their power base then you’ve got corruption. Then again maybe it’s a coincidence it’s those 2 clubs.
 
cheekybids said:
The implementation of AI is very exciting but can you advise if this will be before Anfield & Old Trafford get screens & fix blind spots.

Again, you can have the best technology available but prior to using it if clubs are treated differently based on their power base then you’ve got corruption. Then again maybe it’s a coincidence it’s those 2 clubs.
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We're the biggest club in world football now.

Unless you believe that someone is paying off P/L refs - then any big club bias is going to be in our favor.

Me... I don't see any obvious bias (but bias/corruption will probably be hard to detect). And because of the money involved, corruption is always a possibility. Still - I see no corruption. And if there is hard-to-detect corruption, I'm confident that such corruption is an outlier - and will eventually be caught if it exists.

The alternative - wear a tin hat - everything is suspect and possibly against us. Why even watch football if this is your outlook? - as - according to this viewpoint - matches are fixed in which case we'll never win - or if we do - only because we out-corrupted the opposition. What a depressing, dystopian viewpoint - and one that I reject.

That said, recent VR decisions have been utter shit and need to be improved upon.
 
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BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
We're the biggest club in world football now.

Unless you believe that someone is paying off P/L refs - then any big club bias is going to be in our favor.

Me... I don't see any obvious bias (but bias/corruption will probably be hard to detect). And because of the money involved, corruption is always a possibility. Still - I see no corruption. And if there is hard-to-detect corruption, I'm confident that such corruption is an outlier - and will eventually be caught if it exists.

The alternative - wear a tin hat - everything is suspect and possibly against us. Why even watch football if this is your outlook? - as - according to this viewpoint - matches are fixed in which case we'll never win - or if we do - only because we out-corrupted the opposition. What a depressing, dystopian viewpoint - and one that I reject.

That said, recent VR decisions have been utter shit and need to be improved upon.
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It’s hard to accept but if it continues, you’ll be there.
 
The Future’s Blue! said:
It’s hard to accept but if it continues, you’ll be there.
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I'll be "there" when there's enough evidence for the FA or other governing bodies to take action/convict cheaters. Meanwhile, I'm not wearing a tin hat, thank you very much - and I trust in football governance in the P/L. Should you violently disagree - not sure why you're even watching the sport as according to this viewpoint it's fixed against us and is pointless to watch.

Again - I don't for a second believe the top level football is free of corruption at all. Too much money is involved and recent scandals in other countries prove the point.
 
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BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
We're the biggest club in world football now.

Unless you believe that someone is paying off P/L refs - then any big club bias is going to be in our favor.

Me... I don't see any obvious bias (but bias/corruption will probably be hard to detect). And because of the money involved, corruption is always a possibility. Still - I see no corruption. And if there is hard-to-detect corruption, I'm confident that such corruption is an outlier - and will eventually be caught if it exists.

The alternative - wear a tin hat - everything is suspect and possibly against us. Why even watch football if this is your outlook? - as - according to this viewpoint - matches are fixed in which case we'll never win - or if we do - only because we out-corrupted the opposition. What a depressing, dystopian viewpoint - and one that I reject.
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Why do you have to pay someone off for it to be corruption?

I’ve given examples of how I believe we have institutional corruption. How about this, an official for the premier league reports 2 clubs for failing to have minimum infrastructure for their premier league license.

Is the official supported for doing his job correctly? Would he be quickly despatched to an urgent secondment & provided a cold damp office with minimum light.

Would the contracts be as valuable if the rules said teams can’t play without infrastructure.

Since the announcement of Juve yesterday we’ve heard the TV deal is on the brink of collapse.

You are not always rewarded for doing the wrong thing but the alternative can be a lot worse.
 
cheekybids said:
Why do you have to pay someone off for it to be corruption?

I’ve given examples of how I believe we have institutional corruption. How about this, an official for the premier league reports 2 clubs for failing to have minimum infrastructure for their premier league license.

Is the official supported for doing his job correctly? Would he be quickly despatched to an urgent secondment & provided a cold damp office with minimum light.

Would the contracts be as valuable if the rules said teams can’t play without infrastructure.

Since the announcement of Juve yesterday we’ve heard the TV deal is on the brink of collapse.

You are not always rewarded for doing the wrong thing but the alternative can be a lot worse.
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Not sure what your point is. My point is this. The P/L seems to be free of corruption to me and I enjoy it - mistaken referee calls and VAR bullshit occur - but it's largely both for us and against us in equal measure in the long run. I enjoy the sport because I think results are on the merit - and are corruption free.

Should you believe that corrupt motivations are widespread and affect games - especially if you feel that this is occurring to our detriment - then stop watching the P/L. As according to you, it's fixed against us. Why watch a fixed sport - it's only going to frustrate you?

I do not harbor the believe that corruption is prevalent in the P/L at all. When refereeing mistakes occur to our detriment I take them onboard as simply that - mistakes - which need to be corrected to improve the game.
 
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BlueMoonAcrossThePond said:
Not sure what your point is. My point is this. The P/L seems to be free of corruption to me and I enjoy it - mistaken referee calls and VAR bullshit occur - but it's largely both for us and against us in equal measure in the long run. I enjoy the sport because I think results are on the merit - and not because of corruption.

Should you believe that corrupt motivations are widespread and affect games - especially if you feel that this is occurring to our detriment - then stop watching the P/L. As according to you, it's fixed against us. I do not harbor this believe at all.
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How long has VAR been in operation?

Why have 2 clubs still not got screens to show VAR?

Would Southampton & Fulham be treated the same?
 
cheekybids said:
How long has VAR been in operation?

Why have 2 clubs still not got screens to show VAR?

Would Southampton & Fulham be treated the same?
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Again - you seem upset and convinced that corruption against us is occurring. Just stop watching football in this case. There's nothing that I can say to convince you otherwise and meanwhile you simply get pissed off every match we have something go against us.
 
wolfie1988 said:
This current batch of referees are the worst there has ever been. Since the retirement of the more senior officials, there's only really Oliver and Marriner who seem capable of keeping a lid on the game.

Coote lost control of that within 15 minutes today and he's lucky the game lost it's competitive edge once we'd scored the first.
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Must be Oliver Twist as the referee is OliVAR and is bent as a Yuri Geller spoon
 
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