Religion

[andyhinch]

As in matter can’t be outside of the infinite, so must be of it?

As in there is an infinite amount of matter that has existed for infinity.

 

[arfurclue]

Along these lines - eat dirt. Bang your head against the wall. Jump in a large body of water and keep diving down and down and down (actually don't fucking do any of these things!).

Humans are thinking beings. You and I. We base our actions on what we see and believe to be true. Moreover we base our society on facts established by evidence. Thanks to the scientific method we have computers, smart phones, bridges that don't fall down (mostly), roads, cars, planes, and on and on and on.

"Experiencing Life without the filter of the thinking mind" - what a frightful thought!

And this is perhaps where we might differ ‘we base our actions on what we see and believe to be true.’Yes, if you say that action is rooted in thought but then can you say that thought can be grounded in something deeper than itself? So you can still have thoughts but they they might be seen as more the shifting sands rather than the rock to build the house on.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

And this is perhaps where we might differ ‘we base our actions on what we see and believe to be true.’Yes, if you say that action is rooted in thought but then can you say that thought can be grounded in something deeper than itself? So you can still have thoughts but they they might be seen as more the shifting sands rather than the rock to build the house on.

My last post to you as we seem to be talking at crossroads - go ahead and reply though.

>> "So you can still have thoughts but they they might be seen as more the shifting sands rather than the rock to build the house on."
I'm not sure what to make of this honestly. You argue, I guess, that you have "thoughts" not suitable upon which to build a house but absolutely - I suppose - perfect for basing ones life upon. And these thoughts are not at all accompanied by evidence.

Historically, other societies have had similar "not for building houses" thoughts - leading to belief in completely different deities - yet somehow, your particular thoughts and those of like mind are correct? Without basis in proof?

When stacked up against beliefs of societies past - all fervent - all without proof - how is one to choose? Why shouldn't we cut the hearts out of people and burn them in sacrifice to the Gods? Or if pestilence arises, isn't this a sign of God's dissatisfaction? Shouldn't we punish our leaders accordingly? And so on.

Illogic - belief in that which is unprovable or that has no basis in fact - is a recipe for eventual disaster.

 

[arfurclue]

My last post to you as we seem to be talking at crossroads - go ahead and reply though.

>> "So you can still have thoughts but they they might be seen as more the shifting sands rather than the rock to build the house on."
I'm not sure what to make of this honestly. You argue, I guess, that you have "thoughts" not suitable upon which to build a house but absolutely - I suppose - perfect for basing ones life upon. And these thoughts are not at all accompanied by evidence.

Historically, other societies have had similar "not for building houses" thoughts - leading to belief in completely different deities - yet somehow, your particular thoughts and those of like mind are correct? Without basis in proof?

When stacked up against beliefs of societies past - all fervent - all without proof - how is one to choose? Why shouldn't we cut the hearts out of people and burn them in sacrifice to the Gods? Or if pestilence arises, isn't this a sign of God's dissatisfaction? Shouldn't we punish our leaders accordingly? And so on.

Illogic - belief in that which is unprovable or that has no basis in fact - is a recipe for eventual disaster.

Can I try looking at this another way? If one let’s go of thinking for a bit and maybe focuses on the breath, emotions may arise that are kind of stormy. But if you pass through them then certain things may happen 1) The mind might be clearer, 2) There may a palpable sense of feeling lighter, 3) There can be a sense that some ways of thinking just somehow ‘don’t fit’ anymore - so there may be a natural evolution of thought or, if, you like, an opening to more ‘enlightened’ thought, 4) You might not fit in so well with circles of peers, family, friends etc but 5) you may decide that allowing the feeling lighter, clearer mindedness and going through change is preferable to resisting it - as one may bring joy, the other suffering.

Edit : Just to add. Given how the world is in general and how the political situation is in the US, if I lived there I might be tempted to look at the benefits of using logical thinking as a way to control chaos vs, say. learning how to be presesnt and feel your way through the chaos to the harmony the other side.

 

[Marklr]

Can I try looking at this another way? If one let’s go of thinking for a bit and maybe focuses on the breath, emotions may arise that are kind of stormy. But if you pass through them then certain things may happen 1) The mind might be clearer, 2) There may a palpable sense of feeling lighter, 3) There can be a sense that some ways of thinking just somehow ‘don’t fit’ anymore - so there may be a natural evolution of thought or, if, you like, an opening to more ‘enlightened’ thought, 4) You might not fit in so well with circles of peers, family, friends etc but 5) you may decide that allowing the feeling lighter, clearer mindedness and going through change is preferable to resisting it - as one may bring joy, the other suffering.

I get that when I'm smoking weed. The next day, I've forgotten it all.

 

[arfurclue]

I get that when I'm smoking weed. The next day, I've forgotten it all.

Get high, come down. Or breathe*, release the shit that’s weighing you down, and feel lighter.

edit * breath is not the only way but is an example

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Have you considered the idea that faith is just about being open to the possibility that there is something beyond what one currently believes? Or the possibility that what is often called a strong mind is but the flip side of a weak mind - if you try to hold onto one, you get to hold onto the other. And that if ideas such as the doors of perception have any value, then we may see reality/truth through this conflict of strong/weak mind - only when willing to let go of both do we see more clearly. So are you 100% sure that you read, eg, the bible for what it is? Am not so much trying to say what is right or wrong for you, or even in the bible - I am questioning whether there is even the slightest space to discuss whether your conclusions may be entirely true or not.

My conclusions are evidence-based, while the space for my conclusions to be wrong are, at present, faith-based.

In the absence of further evidence, I happy with my conclusions. If further evidence presents itself, then all things are possible when it comes to current conclusions.

I'm not “closed minded,” but I have come to firm conclusions on multiple things in my life, all of which will require significant, compelling evidence to force a change of mind.

Having seen none in my adult years, and feeling like the atheist viewpoint is not only gaining wider appeal, but also being recognized as no longer requiring to be spoken of in hushed tones, I’m still open to possibilities, but not holding my breath waiting for them.

 

[arfurclue]

My conclusions are evidence-based, while the space for my conclusions to be wrong are, at present, faith-based.

In the absence of further evidence, I happy with my conclusions. If further evidence presents itself, then all things are possible when it comes to current conclusions.

I'm not “closed minded,” but I have come to firm conclusions on multiple things in my life, all of which will require significant, compelling evidence to force a change of mind.

Having seen none in my adult years, and feeling like the atheist viewpoint is not only gaining wider appeal, but also being recognized as no longer requiring to be spoken of in hushed tones, I’m still open to possibilities, but not holding my breath waiting for them.

Glad you feel able to speak about atheism in something other than hushed tones. Great, go for it. Love the idea of each having this freedom to find their light in their own way. I just don’t find the idea of using science to oppress others that explore otherwise so appealing. Evidence based, for me, can be about how I live and experience life each day -and that may not involve trying to fit my humanity into a mechanical, scientifically controlled, laboratory ‘proven’ one size fits all ‘truth.’ Life is more beautiful, more inspiring than that -and experientially it can feel that if life is too much in the grip of control it leaves little space to breathe and leaves one thirsting after the creative juices of Life. So control and it’s expressions through science and/or religion may be a ‘win’ for the mind but at what expense? The absence of the heart of our own being?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Glad you feel able to speak about atheism in something other than hushed tones. Great, go for it. Love the idea of each having this freedom to find their light in their own way. I just don’t find the idea of using science to oppress others that explore otherwise so appealing. Evidence based, for me, can be about how I live and experience life each day -and that may not involve trying to fit my humanity into a mechanical, scientifically controlled, laboratory ‘proven’ one size fits all ‘truth.’ Life is more beautiful, more inspiring than that -and experientially it can feel that if life is too much in the grip of control it leaves little space to breathe and leaves one thirsting after the creative juices of Life. So control and it’s expressions through science and/or religion may be a ‘win’ for the mind but at what expense? The absence of the heart of our own being?

That’s a rather silly word salad, ending in even sillier questions, even if they do sound rhetorical.

Are you saying that people who have an evidence-based outlook on religion cannot enjoy life, or only see everything…every interaction, every moment of their life…THROUGH a “scientific lens”?

Whose mind is closed now?

It is interesting to watch the machinations of those WITHOUT evidence for their beliefs try to use their supposed deeper understanding and appreciation of the world (and “the word”) to attempt to undervalue the life anyone else could possibly lead or enjoy because of their lack of belief in magic, miracles and fairy tales….or even “the heart of our own being!” (Haha, good one!)

Take care. I think we are done.

 

[arfurclue]

That’s a rather silly word salad, ending in even sillier questions, even if they do sound rhetorical.

Are you saying that people who have an evidence-based outlook on religion cannot enjoy life, or only see everything…every interaction, every moment of their life…THROUGH a “scientific lens”?

Whose mind is closed now?

It is interesting to watch the machinations of those WITHOUT evidence for their beliefs try to use their supposed deeper understanding and appreciation of the world (and “the word”) to attempt to undervalue the life anyone else could possibly lead or enjoy because of their lack of belief in magic, miracles and fairy tales….or even “the heart of our own being!” (Haha, good one!)

Take care. I think we are done.

If it sounds silly to you, then I guess I’ll take that as a compliment. How you write is proof enough that you don’t know your own heart. And you are free to live that way. I’ll enjoy the richness of being ‘silly’ and you can have fun with being serious and the rewards that may bring.