journolud
Well-Known Member
Feeling impotent myself in the face of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine so apropos of nothing I’ll resurrect the religion thread and turn my ire on an easy foe.
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Religion
- Thread starter idahoblues
- Start date
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
An imaginary foe. But one which distracts and corrupts minds and keeps people in bondage to a **** of a being that doesnt even exist. It is 8n times such as these that only the blind fail to see the reality. He is only in your head.Feeling impotent myself in the face of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine so apropos of nothing I’ll resurrect the religion thread and turn my ire on an easy foe.
There is no doubt that bad things happening to innocent people is a challenge to the concept of a loving and all powerful God. David Attenborough puts the case against God on these grounds, whilst stating near miraculous "chance" occurrences that allow life to exist.Any words of wisdom from our resident religious sector re the indescrininite bombing of the Ukrainian people and will God finally get round to sorting out the Commies come judgement day for their inhumanity to man. Discuss.
I can see three broad ways of trying to rationalise this difficulty.
1) God or Gods don't exist.
I can see why folk would move to this view, I know that the Boxing Day tsunami of 2004 caused people to lose faith in God. Personally I find this solution a bit depressing - if there is no creator it would seem to follow that there is no purpose to the universe and consequently no purpose to life. So what then is the value of individual lives? Or of caring for the environment beyond our own lifespan? Our world will eventually come to an end and if there is nothing beyond that why should we care?
I know that there are people who can reconcile this and without a faith in a universal purpose can act in ways that would comply with core religious values without accepting a creative God behind everything - but I would find that difficult.
2) There is an all powerful God (or Gods) but that God is at best indifferent to human suffering in the pursuit of some master plan. Possible, but not a God I would choose to have faith in.
3) That there is a loving God but one who is not all powerful and where there is constant conflict with powerful forces for evil (Personified in the Devil or Satan). This constructive vs destructive conflict seems to have echoes in science with the processes of evolution and entropy seeming to operate against each other. I sometimes amuse myself on seeing a rusting tractor or other agricultural machinery in a field by wondering whether that is something emerging from the soil by the random aggregation of elements or whether it is something that was designed and manufactured and having been superseded, and with the energy to maintain its state ceased, it is now slowly reverting to its more stable state. Evolution of course is not without it's casualties - survival of the fittest is a fairly harsh taskmaster.
It has to be acknowledged that whilst religious bodies have, and are, giving benefits to society they have, and are, also causing much harm. This seems to be in part to interpreting religious concepts in a way that seems strange to me but also through people perversely using religious structures to satisfy their own ends. Sometimes I think that religious organisations are the biggest obstacle to belief in God.
Not sure I would classify these thoughts as "words of wisdom" but they are how I try to rationalise things.
journolud
Well-Known Member
Not mine buddy, I’m not a believer but believe in the right of anyone to believe. Seems he is more in the head of the pointlessly angry about his existence, or otherwiseAn imaginary foe. But one which distracts and corrupts minds and keeps people in bondage to a **** of a being that doesnt even exist. It is 8n times such as these that only the blind fail to see the reality. He is only in your head.
@Magicpole sorry mate but you have missed the point completely. It isn't about god and never has been. It is about power.
If I build my church/mosque bigger than my neighbours I am better than them and more powerful. For that I need money and therefore believers. The main reason the catholic church was against birth control was not about killing the unborn, it was about creating more believers and keeping families in poverty as a result. All the while taking what little cash they had every Sunday.
All religions are the same, the rich are at the top, the poor at the bottom.
If I build my church/mosque bigger than my neighbours I am better than them and more powerful. For that I need money and therefore believers. The main reason the catholic church was against birth control was not about killing the unborn, it was about creating more believers and keeping families in poverty as a result. All the while taking what little cash they had every Sunday.
All religions are the same, the rich are at the top, the poor at the bottom.
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
I dont have an issue with people believing. I have a problem.when what is in their made up books are expected to be adhered to by everyone else. Anyone can sit and talk about the great flood that didnt happen or the universe being created in 6 dsys and all the other fucking garbage in all of them. Fibe, crack on. But, keep it to yourselves Please.Not mine buddy, I’m not a believer but believe in the right of anyone to believe. Seems he is more in the head of the pointlessly angry about his existence, or otherwise
@Magicpole (giggle)I dont have an issue with people believing. I have a problem.when what is in their made up books are expected to be adhered to by everyone else. Anyone can sit and talk about the great flood that didnt happen or the universe being created in 6 dsys and all the other fucking garbage in all of them. Fibe, crack on. But, keep it to yourselves Please.
They say I'll catch a fever
Cos I am a non believer
Bubonic plague Oh do behave
I ain't payin' you no money
In your land of milk an honey
While I struggle to live
Cos you got everythin' I had to give.
but lets the wrongdoers inflict terrible pain and suffering to innocents in the meanwhile"Do not think ˹O Prophet˺ that God is unaware of what the wrongdoers do. He only delays them until a Day when ˹their˺ eyes will stare in horror" (Qur'an 14:42)
please give over with these soundbites
journolud
Well-Known Member
I don’t have an issue with people not believing. It’s when they go on and on about it…I dont have an issue with people believing. I have a problem.when what is in their made up books are expected to be adhered to by everyone else. Anyone can sit and talk about the great flood that didnt happen or the universe being created in 6 dsys and all the other fucking garbage in all of them. Fibe, crack on. But, keep it to yourselves Please.
but lets the wrongdoers inflict terrible pain and suffering to innocents in the meanwhile
please give over with these soundbites
If God intervenes on every bad action, then there wouldn't be any free-will, guilt, repentence etc.
Qur'an 16:61 "And if God were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, but He defers them for a specified term."
DontLookBackInAnger
Well-Known Member
To show you the control religion has had within the English speaking world "atheism" is the only word I can think of to describe a lack of something. For example we don't call people that don't collect stamps "non-stamp collectors" yet we do so with people that don't take a view on a god, either by non-belief or lack of belief
andyhinch
Well-Known Member
Are you saying he’s ineffectual or a bit of a **** ?If God intervenes on every bad action, then there wouldn't be any free-will, guilt, repentence etc.
Qur'an 16:61 "And if God were to impose blame on the people for their wrongdoing, He would not have left upon the earth any creature, but He defers them for a specified term."
journolud
Well-Known Member
Off the top of my head;To show you the control religion has had within the English speaking world "atheism" is the only word I can think of to describe a lack of something. For example we don't call people that don't collect stamps "non-stamp collectors" yet we do so with people that don't take a view on a god, either by non-belief or lack of belief
asexual
apolitical
Indifferent
all suggest a lack of something. That atheism is the only word you can think of points either towards your narrow thinking or lack of vocabulary. Atheists do take a view on God by the way, that he doesn’t exist
Ineffectual ? "He wouldn't do immediately" is not the same as "He cannot do".Are you saying he’s ineffectual or a bit of a **** ?
DontLookBackInAnger
Well-Known Member
Maybe I haven't explained myself well, but the first two are active positions and the third isn't a position you wouldn't split the world into interesting and indifferent people. Perhaps this will help me explain it you wouldn't refer to people who are left-handed to being non-right handed while they are by definition non-right handed!Off the top of my head;
asexual
apolitical
Indifferent
all suggest a lack of something. That atheism is the only word you can think of points either towards your narrow thinking or lack of vocabulary. Atheists do take a view on God by the way, that he doesn’t exist
So it would be in the afterlife which nobody will ever be able to prove exists? That's handy.Ineffectual ? "He wouldn't do immediately" is not the same as "He cannot do".
So it would be in the afterlife which nobody will ever be able to prove exists? That's handy.
If God exists, then the afterlife for sure exists.
Well yes, I can buy that logic but it's quite a big if isn't it.If God exists, then the afterlife for sure exists.