MadchesterCity
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Just watched it again on Sportscene, thought it was a definite red at the match, but think it’s a 50/50 red after seeing replay
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Scottish Football Thread | 2024/25
- Thread starter jimharri
- Start date
I knew that would be your answer. The crowds for Rangers and Celtic home games are thousands more than the usual Killie crowds of 4,500-6,200 ish. They have little to no affect to the HOME support. There are certainly not thousands of home supporters staying away.You're quoting match attendances. Not number of HOME supporters. HOME supports are down when Kilmarnock, St Mirren and others play the old firm. Overall crowd at RP will be HIGHER as Rangers/Celtic bring 4,000 fans to St Johnstone's/Ross County's 100 or so.
That is so fucking simple to understand but here you are struggling along. Is day to day life this complicated for you?
Ahhhh the "independent" VAR review. Comprised of former players, managers and coaches. I assume you realise who the bulk of them will support and the type of characters involved in the nonsense? Independent is a laughable concept.
And if I'm under 14 then you just got fucking schooled on attendance comment by a child. How does that make you feel, thicko?
Edit - I should say that I signed up to this forum in May 2008. I'd be doing well to still be under 14, but then again you're struggling with the whole math thing so I wouldn't expect you to understand.
You make a good point about the IRP being faceless ‘experts’. I’d rather the panel were known and open to questions from supporters of all clubs. I’d like referees to be allowed to explain decisions. Simple solution and we would at least then know how decisions were arrived at.
As far as the penalty v Copenhagen. I’d already mentioned Elyounousi had been diving earlier and the contact at the penalty was exaggerated by the Copenhagen player. The replay shows the Killie defender going for the bouncing ball and kicking their players leg. Absolutely no intent to foul the player and pre VAR would rarely ever be a penalty but now they give these decisions more often than not. I get your frustration. I said after the Kiev game and the unanimous condemnation of the Italian referee (except from your good self) that you get some inexplicable decisions in European football. We were knocked out last season by Benfica by a penalty that never was.
Anyway all the best on Thursday and I hope both clubs can get a result. Killie certainly need a team performance to kick start their season
Will be interesting to see the outcome of the appeal. Rangers had two similar Red cards and lost both appeals only for the IRP to later say they were both VAR errors.Just watched it again on Sportscene, thought it was a definite red at the match, but think it’s a 50/50 red after seeing replay
I suppose you’ll always get inconsistencies in subjective calls.
For me it’s a harsh Red as he does try , at the last second , to pull out but he’s committed to the challenge. The speed and height will probably go against him in the appeal
ayrshire_blue
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I knew that would be your answer. The crowds for Rangers and Celtic home games are thousands more than the usual Killie crowds of 4,500-6,200 ish. They have little to no affect to the HOME support. There are certainly not thousands of home supporters staying away.
You're wrong, I don't know how else to put it across to you. The number of home supporters on seats for these games are always lower than games Vs any other team. They (old firm) are the opposite of an "attraction". I'm not sure how Kilmarnock (or other clubs) for that matter count official attendances - IE is it tickets sold which include every season ticket holder whether in attendance or not? Or is it every person through the turnstiles that day (more accurate)? I know various clubs report differently, I'm not sure.
What I am sure about, having had a season ticket for about 25 years of my life, is that our crowd is way down for these fixtures as people choose to stay away. There's much more empty seats than what's present for all other league home matches.
There was a period during the Michael Johnston chairman era (who loved to bend over backwards for the old firm) that home support was regularly under 2,000 people. I don't mean that in a hyperbolic way, the home stands were genuinely as empty as I've ever seen them.
Sometimes it's maybe better just to take my word for it. I go every week, I see it for myself. There will be various factors at play with how official numbers are counted as said above but it's down. A home tie against hearts, st Mirren, Ross county or whoever will see more home supporters in attendance than if we were playing any of the old firm.
As for the red card again, I fully agree with @MadchesterCity post that it's 50/50. Which is why I've said it shouldn't have been for VAR to get involved as there wasn't a clear and obvious error from the referees initial decision of yellow. If his initial decision had been red, again I wouldn't have expected it to be reviewed and downgraded either. My personal opinion is that yellow was fine, however that's the only one of our 3 red cards this season where I disagree with the officials - the other 2 have been fully merited.
If we've appealed it I think we'll lose.
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
Do they stay away because it’s on the telly? And has nothing to do with them hating us?You're wrong, I don't know how else to put it across to you. The number of home supporters on seats for these games are always lower than games Vs any other team. They (old firm) are the opposite of an "attraction". I'm not sure how Kilmarnock (or other clubs) for that matter count official attendances - IE is it tickets sold which include every season ticket holder whether in attendance or not? Or is it every person through the turnstiles that day (more accurate)? I know various clubs report differently, I'm not sure.
What I am sure about, having had a season ticket for about 25 years of my life, is that our crowd is way down for these fixtures as people choose to stay away. There's much more empty seats than what's present for all other league home matches.
There was a period during the Michael Johnston chairman era (who loved to bend over backwards for the old firm) that home support was regularly under 2,000 people. I don't mean that in a hyperbolic way, the home stands were genuinely as empty as I've ever seen them.
Sometimes it's maybe better just to take my word for it. I go every week, I see it for myself. There will be various factors at play with how official numbers are counted as said above but it's down. A home tie against hearts, st Mirren, Ross county or whoever will see more home supporters in attendance than if we were playing any of the old firm.
As for the red card again, I fully agree with @MadchesterCity post that it's 50/50. Which is why I've said it shouldn't have been for VAR to get involved as there wasn't a clear and obvious error from the referees initial decision of yellow. If his initial decision had been red, again I wouldn't have expected it to be reviewed and downgraded either. My personal opinion is that yellow was fine, however that's the only one of our 3 red cards this season where I disagree with the officials - the other 2 have been fully merited.
If we've appealed it I think we'll lose.
ayrshire_blue
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Do they stay away because it’s on the telly? And has nothing to do with them hating us?
No. I mean it might be the case for a good few but on the whole, no. It'll also be the case for some that they just can't take getting humped much more often than not. I'm critical of that mindset though in my experience is thankfully a factor only representing a small amount compared to the main.
I suppose it's something difficult to explain to those who actually support one of the two. Walking to and from the ground amongst them is a really unpleasant experience, never mind being subjected to the 90 odd minutes of IRA/UVF/sectarian/political chanting (which I know you and no.8 are both critical of). It just doesn't hold any appeal.
Personally, returning the Moffat stand to home supporters has helped greatly. It means that old firm fans are generally all attending via the one route so if you plan accordingly you can almost get to and from the ground without actually encountering many at all. I didn't used to take my kid to these games, I do now. Feel it's safer for them, didn't always feel that way.
Leaving aside attendancesYou're wrong, I don't know how else to put it across to you. The number of home supporters on seats for these games are always lower than games Vs any other team. They (old firm) are the opposite of an "attraction". I'm not sure how Kilmarnock (or other clubs) for that matter count official attendances - IE is it tickets sold which include every season ticket holder whether in attendance or not? Or is it every person through the turnstiles that day (more accurate)? I know various clubs report differently, I'm not sure.
What I am sure about, having had a season ticket for about 25 years of my life, is that our crowd is way down for these fixtures as people choose to stay away. There's much more empty seats than what's present for all other league home matches.
There was a period during the Michael Johnston chairman era (who loved to bend over backwards for the old firm) that home support was regularly under 2,000 people. I don't mean that in a hyperbolic way, the home stands were genuinely as empty as I've ever seen them.
Sometimes it's maybe better just to take my word for it. I go every week, I see it for myself. There will be various factors at play with how official numbers are counted as said above but it's down. A home tie against hearts, st Mirren, Ross county or whoever will see more home supporters in attendance than if we were playing any of the old firm.
As for the red card again, I fully agree with @MadchesterCity post that it's 50/50. Which is why I've said it shouldn't have been for VAR to get involved as there wasn't a clear and obvious error from the referees initial decision of yellow. If his initial decision had been red, again I wouldn't have expected it to be reviewed and downgraded either. My personal opinion is that yellow was fine, however that's the only one of our 3 red cards this season where I disagree with the officials - the other 2 have been fully merited.
If we've appealed it I think we'll lose.
VAR got involved as it’s above ankle level. Nowadays if you go in at speed at that height it’s always going to put to VAR. The referee doesn’t have to change decision and last season we had Don Robertson sent to the screen as the Sterling challenge barely touched the Aberdeen players big toe. Robertson stuck with his Red card.
I’m just repeating myself but all football supporters want is consistency and transparency. We get neither
Or they are fed up with the duopoly winning the trophies and have little appetite watching their team losing again..Do they stay away because it’s on the telly? And has nothing to do with them hating us?
I don’t have the answers but something has to be done to narrow the gap/ improve real competition
ayrshire_blue
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Leaving aside attendances
VAR got involved as it’s above ankle level. Nowadays if you go in at speed at that height it’s always going to put to VAR. The referee doesn’t have to change decision and last season we had Don Robertson sent to the screen as the Sterling challenge barely touched the Aberdeen players big toe. Robertson stuck with his Red card.
I’m just repeating myself but all football supporters want is consistency and transparency. We get neither
Agree on the consistency.
We were led to believe prior to this season that there would be a "higher bar" or at least a clearer definition of when VAR should be getting involved.
The challenge was high, I don't dispute that. I do dispute that the referee has completely missed a significant part of it and VAR had to ask him for a review as I just don't see it as meeting the criteria. A 50/50 decision which imo (I know I'm repeating myself) should have been left to the referee's onfield call.
McInnes makes an interesting point, the VAR official is more experienced than the referee. Has the referee caved in because someone with more experience disagrees with him (imo wrongly)? Don't know.
MadchesterCity
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I think it’s a certainty any appeal won’t be successful, I also know I’d have been off after 5 minutes every game that I was playing. Football and standards for tackling have changed drasticallyWill be interesting to see the outcome of the appeal. Rangers had two similar Red cards and lost both appeals only for the IRP to later say they were both VAR errors.
I suppose you’ll always get inconsistencies in subjective calls.
For me it’s a harsh Red as he does try , at the last second , to pull out but he’s committed to the challenge. The speed and height will probably go against him in the appeal
I understand what they are trying to achieve but in trying to eradicate over the top dangerous tackles they leave officials with little wiggle roomI think it’s a certainty any appeal won’t be successful, I also know I’d have been off after 5 minutes every game that I was playing. Football and standards for tackling have changed drastically
Take this specific challenge. The ball is running away from Killie player and he’s desperately trying to win it back but in doing so he’s gone in at speed and only slightly too high. He’s realised , a little too late, he’s not getting there and tried to pull out of challenge but contact is made at speed and with the rules as they are it’s more often than not going to be a Red. I’m sure most agree it’s very unfortunate for the player and there is zero intent in the tackle
Critical of on here….No. I mean it might be the case for a good few but on the whole, no. It'll also be the case for some that they just can't take getting humped much more often than not. I'm critical of that mindset though in my experience is thankfully a factor only representing a small amount compared to the main.
I suppose it's something difficult to explain to those who actually support one of the two. Walking to and from the ground amongst them is a really unpleasant experience, never mind being subjected to the 90 odd minutes of IRA/UVF/sectarian/political chanting (which I know you and no.8 are both critical of). It just doesn't hold any appeal.
Personally, returning the Moffat stand to home supporters has helped greatly. It means that old firm fans are generally all attending via the one route so if you plan accordingly you can almost get to and from the ground without actually encountering many at all. I didn't used to take my kid to these games, I do now. Feel it's safer for them, didn't always feel that way.
I wish Hibs went further in cutting that lots allocations. We all get the worst seats and crappy allocation when we visit them, Parkhead easily worst away end in top flight which is an achievement considering Pittodrie is included.
The away section at Ibrox is one of the best sections. The mirror image to that section between Govan/Copland are the hospitality seats and among the most expensiveCritical of on here….
I wish Hibs went further in cutting that lots allocations. We all get the worst seats and crappy allocation when we visit them, Parkhead easily worst away end in top flight which is an achievement considering Pittodrie is included.
Hibs made the cutting allocation announcement to take the heat away from their support being caught throwing glass bottles at opposition players / officials again. It was so blatant it was embarrassing
Hibs made the cutting allocation announcement due to the bigoted songs from the Rangers end.The away section at Ibrox is one of the best sections. The mirror image to that section between Govan/Copland are the hospitality seats and among the most expensive
Hibs made the cutting allocation announcement to take the heat away from their support being caught throwing glass bottles at opposition players / officials again. It was so blatant it was embarrassing
As a Rangers fan that used to travel everywhere I’ve seen us at our best and worst. I cannot remember any trouble at Rugby Park between Rangers and Kilmarnock. My main gripe with Rugby Park is I’m 6’3’’ and the seating was among the tightest in the league !! Also got soaked one midweek game (possibly a cup tie) heaviest rain I’ve seen at footballNo. I mean it might be the case for a good few but on the whole, no. It'll also be the case for some that they just can't take getting humped much more often than not. I'm critical of that mindset though in my experience is thankfully a factor only representing a small amount compared to the main.
I suppose it's something difficult to explain to those who actually support one of the two. Walking to and from the ground amongst them is a really unpleasant experience, never mind being subjected to the 90 odd minutes of IRA/UVF/sectarian/political chanting (which I know you and no.8 are both critical of). It just doesn't hold any appeal.
Personally, returning the Moffat stand to home supporters has helped greatly. It means that old firm fans are generally all attending via the one route so if you plan accordingly you can almost get to and from the ground without actually encountering many at all. I didn't used to take my kid to these games, I do now. Feel it's safer for them, didn't always feel that way.
Also the sectarianism was far worse during the 70s/ 80s . I’ve seen Kilmarnock fill the bottom of the Broomloan
I’m being a tad hypocritical here as I’d like to see Rangers move the away section to the Club Deck and cut allocations to a couple of hundred. We lose out giving away such a large section and such a large segregation area.
I just believe that the game is better when there is a decent atmosphere and grounds are full. Obviously I’d prefer it if the grounds were full of home supporters
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
It’s money.Or they are fed up with the duopoly winning the trophies and have little appetite watching their team losing again..
I don’t have the answers but something has to be done to narrow the gap/ improve real competition
Yes. That was what they said in their statement…Hibs made the cutting allocation announcement due to the bigoted songs from the Rangers end.
I suppose it was purely coincidental, after these songs being sung for decades, that the statement was made immediately after the game where their support were caught throwing glass bottles
Of course I’m not excusing the singing and actually condemned it during the game long before it was highlighted in the media. Those responsible for singing that song at that time are an utter embarrassment to the club I support.
Of course it is and the money should be shared more equally and a percentage of European profits could be sharedIt’s money.
Magicpole
Well-Known Member
You go first.Of course it is and the money should be shared more equally and a percentage of European profits could be shared
I believe they share European profits in Holland for help towards ground / pitches.You go first.
Something has to be done. It’s 40 odd years since a club outwith the Old Firm won the title. You’re maybe happy with that but I’d prefer real competition and a more level playing field