Scottish independence

[gordondaviesmoustache]

"We campaign in poetry and govern in prose" will be the most apposite of political catchphrases if Scotland votes for independence.

We've seen the effects that punitive, personal taxation has on a nation's economy in the contemporary world, if we cast our eyes across the English Chanel or equally to London, residence now to increasing numbers of French tax-exiles.

I really like the Scots and I'm perfectly content to accept their decision, and whilst I don't believe for a minute that comparisons with Greece are helpful, neither are those with Scandinava, or even Ireland for that matter. There will be a serious reality check for those expecting a land of milk and honey imo.

I wonder, on the day in question, how many people will change their minds at the last minute? Quite a few, I reckon, certainly more than in a General Election. I suspect the finality of an uncoupling will reveal itself in the form of a degree of conservatism coming to the fore in the minds of sufficient undecideds to keep the Union intact, but barely. The big two urban centres, containing less naked Nationalism, will carry the day. For now, at least.

Who knows what form nation states will take in the decades ahead. It's worth remembering that there wasn't a Union before 1707 and the world still turned. The same will be the case as and when it dissolves. The way we structure how we, as humans, are governed has to evolve to meet the needs of a world that is changing at ever increasing speed. I expect Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireand and the English regions to follow an even more devolved path of government in the next couple of decades, for better or worse - probably better imo.

Those of a conservative disposition are going to find this century to be an uncomfortable one, I reckon. The times they are a changin'.

 

[aguero93:20]

Strange that you've used Ireland as an example.

Your other examples left well well well before anyone had a modern economy.
Not to mention that Scotland sells more to the rest of the uk than anywhere else combined.

In what way is it strange? Do you have any idea how much living standards have improved here compared to the rest of the UK in the last century?


As for the last part, the UK is still one of Ireland's biggest export markets as well, independence of government doesn't stop trade.

You genuinely believe that first part? Are we talking about the same Ireland here?
The average wage in the uk is a 5th higher than Ireland, British people are richer, the economy is better and the country is more developed.

No but when many large companies up sticks and move south of the border, the trade will rapidly decrease.

The same Ireland that was treated as an agricultural backwater by London with no state welfare, very little education, no industrialisation? Yes. Do you think any of those factors re wage etc would be any better if we were still in the UK? What's the average wage in Scotland and Northern Ireland compared to the rest of the UK? What's the difference in average net worth? As for outside investment, it's never stopped us and it won't stop Scotland.

 

[Mikeyc1986]

A yes vote isn't a vote for salmond. It's a vote to get scotland independence, then in march 2016 there will be a general election to vote in the first party. Labour looks more likely to get in if we get our independence.

The bbc media is so pro union, these stories about Lloyds, rbs, etc has all come a week before the referendum when majority have all ready made up their mind. A laughing stock really, cameron came up and gave a speech in a financial building, he didn't walk the streets, this comes from a man who cares about his country. Who imposes the bedroom tax which affects the disabled and vulnerable.

I will challenge anyone a £100 bet for charity on the result. The streets of scotland are awash with yes campaigners. I'm confident in scotland getting independence. There are campaign rally's in every town in scotland today. It's a movement!

More people vote if they are voting for change!

 

[johnnytapia]

It may be that the undecideds are closet NO voters too afraid to be seen as un-Scottish

Which happened in the 1992 general election, nearly every opinion poll had Labour down to win, because it was seen as uncoll to say you were voting Tory, they voted Tory nonetheless

This, in a nutshell, is why I think it will be a "No". It doesn't matter what you say in an opinion poll, it has zero effect on your future. When the ballot paper stares up at you, awaiting that cross, the future is thrown into sharp focus. The vast, almost total voting public will have one thing on their mind as the pencil hovers: £

Sadly, for I would love Scotland to be the catalyst for devolved power to the cities, I think it will be a "No" - at a canter.

 

[Mikeyc1986]

Llyods already have headquarters in London, the Scottish media have torn apart these claims. Rbs have stated no jobs will be affected, they sent emails to their staff. Rbs are simply recognising that scotland being an independent country they would then need a HQ in London as that's who owns the bank. It's a laughing stock up here in scotland.

My fellow citizens you will be surprised come next Thursday. We won't!

Good luck with the tories and ukip for the next 100 years!

 

[Blue Mist]

Bearing in mind I cannot influence the vote in any meaningful way I am sick of constant coverage of it.
The BBC alone must have spent a fortune sending every newsreader to Scotland (all expenses paid) and for what ? 3/4 of the United Kingdom don't get a say in it and yet it is rammed down our necks.

Just go Scotland, leave quietly (yeh right) and close the door after you.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

It may be that the undecideds are closet NO voters too afraid to be seen as un-Scottish

Which happened in the 1992 general election, nearly every opinion poll had Labour down to win, because it was seen as uncoll to say you were voting Tory, they voted Tory nonetheless

This, in a nutshell, is why I think it will be a "No". It doesn't matter what you say in an opinion poll, it has zero effect on your future. When the ballot paper stares up at you, awaiting that cross, the future is thrown into sharp focus. The vast, almost total voting public will have one thing on their mind as the pencil hovers: £

Sadly, for I would love Scotland to be the catalyst for devolved power to the cities, I think it will be a "No" - at a canter.

The privacy of the ballot box can most effectively concentrate the mind. Not sure about the canter bit, though. A neck, maybe.

I omitted to thank you for your German noun (or is it Noun) advice the other day, JT.

Thanks. Always happy to learn :-)

 

[tom]

They have broke away already which ever way the vote goes

 

[Ban-jani]

In what way is it strange? Do you have any idea how much living standards have improved here compared to the rest of the UK in the last century?


As for the last part, the UK is still one of Ireland's biggest export markets as well, independence of government doesn't stop trade.

You genuinely believe that first part? Are we talking about the same Ireland here?
The average wage in the uk is a 5th higher than Ireland, British people are richer, the economy is better and the country is more developed.

No but when many large companies up sticks and move south of the border, the trade will rapidly decrease.

The same Ireland that was treated as an agricultural backwater by London with no state welfare, very little education, no industrialisation? Yes. Do you think any of those factors re wage etc would be any better if we were still in the UK? What's the average wage in Scotland and Northern Ireland compared to the rest of the UK? What's the difference in average net worth? As for outside investment, it's never stopped us and it won't stop Scotland.

Of course things will improve if you're no longer oppressed, the point is that Scotland aren't, there's a chasm of a difference between Ireland being part of the union and Scotland, it's such a difference in circumstances your point is laughable.

Your first point was that living standards in Ireland have improved compared to the rest of the UK over the last century, that simply isn't true.

 

[carlos tevez is a blue]

Scotland's Got Talent sounds turd.

 

[Mikeyc1986]

Bearing in mind I cannot influence the vote in any meaningful way I am sick of constant coverage of it.
The BBC alone must have spent a fortune sending every newsreader to Scotland (all expenses paid) and for what ? 3/4 of the United Kingdom don't get a say in it and yet it is rammed down our necks.

Just go Scotland, leave quietly (yeh right) and close the door after you.

It's been news up here everyday for the past 2 years, hardworking journalists and reporters have been at it for years, but as soon as yes get a swing in the polls they start covering it nationwide, sending up bbc english based reporters, (not to mention over 100 based westminster mps get a train up, milliband, Clegg, cameron and farage) come up to cover the last week. When our younger, scottish ones who have been out reporting from the streets for 2 years get shunted away. BBC are getting slated up here for it, and again this goes unreported to the wider uk.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Scotland's Got Talent sounds turd.

I don't know. A judging panel of Susan Boyle, Irvine Welsh and the Krankies has a certain appeal.

 

[johnnytapia]

Which happened in the 1992 general election, nearly every opinion poll had Labour down to win, because it was seen as uncoll to say you were voting Tory, they voted Tory nonetheless

This, in a nutshell, is why I think it will be a "No". It doesn't matter what you say in an opinion poll, it has zero effect on your future. When the ballot paper stares up at you, awaiting that cross, the future is thrown into sharp focus. The vast, almost total voting public will have one thing on their mind as the pencil hovers: £

Sadly, for I would love Scotland to be the catalyst for devolved power to the cities, I think it will be a "No" - at a canter.

The privacy of the ballot box can most effectively concentrate the mind. Not sure about the canter bit, though. A neck, maybe.

I omitted to thank you for your German noun (or is it Noun) advice the other day, JT.

Thanks. Always happy to learn :-)

There was no sense of Schadenfreude whatsoever in seeing you make such a mistake. Back to the Scots - it does seem very reminiscent of '92 when Labour appeared, poll-wise, on the cusp of victory. And Major absolutely waltzed in - not sure, but I believe he got more votes than any PM post-war, or possibly even before. He certainly got Edwina's. The % of undecideds tells me this will be a much easier win for the "No" campaign.

 

[aguero93:20]

You genuinely believe that first part? Are we talking about the same Ireland here?
The average wage in the uk is a 5th higher than Ireland, British people are richer, the economy is better and the country is more developed.

No but when many large companies up sticks and move south of the border, the trade will rapidly decrease.

The same Ireland that was treated as an agricultural backwater by London with no state welfare, very little education, no industrialisation? Yes. Do you think any of those factors re wage etc would be any better if we were still in the UK? What's the average wage in Scotland and Northern Ireland compared to the rest of the UK? What's the difference in average net worth? As for outside investment, it's never stopped us and it won't stop Scotland.

Of course things will improve if you're no longer oppressed, the point is that Scotland aren't, there's a chasm of a difference between Ireland being part of the union and Scotland, it's such a difference in circumstances your point is laughable.

Your first point was that living standards in Ireland have improved compared to the rest of the UK over the last century, that simply isn't true.

Back that statement up then why don't you?

 

[Ban-jani]

The same Ireland that was treated as an agricultural backwater by London with no state welfare, very little education, no industrialisation? Yes. Do you think any of those factors re wage etc would be any better if we were still in the UK? What's the average wage in Scotland and Northern Ireland compared to the rest of the UK? What's the difference in average net worth? As for outside investment, it's never stopped us and it won't stop Scotland.

Of course things will improve if you're no longer oppressed, the point is that Scotland aren't, there's a chasm of a difference between Ireland being part of the union and Scotland, it's such a difference in circumstances your point is laughable.

Your first point was that living standards in Ireland have improved compared to the rest of the UK over the last century, that simply isn't true.

Back that statement up then why don't you?

I already have, you don't appear to be illiterate so I'll give you the opportunity to read my posts again, if you're still struggling then I'll reiterate it for you.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

There was no sense of Schadenfreude whatsoever in seeing you make such a mistake.

You've raised an interesting etymological point, in actual fact. Schadenfreude, it could very well be said, is a word that has fully passed into the English language, not least, as is well documented, because there is no single word equivalent in our tongue. On that basis would it be right that its use continued to follow German grammatical rules? Could it not be said, that it should be the case, in the course of its written 'English' use, that a lower case 's' is used, as it is now an 'English' word?

 

[Anonymous]

Scotland's Got Talent sounds turd.

I don't know. A judging panel of Susan Boyle, Irvine Welsh and the Krankies has a certain appeal.

Sex tape from Hell.

 

[bluemanc]

The NO! PR Juggernaut has swung into action,bigtime.
Germany are linking the YES vote to a vote for starting a depression like in the 30's.
Interesting to see the lengths cameron etc have gone to to poison the YES vote,the YES vote hasn't a chance of winning now they are taking it seriously.

 

[hackneyslim]

This is getting to be quite a good thread, thank you all for an interesting read. It is a bit dismaying to read some particularly virulent anti-Scottish comments, of course, but at the same time it is amusing to think that some of those who express such views support the Union and cannot understand why Scotland would leave it.

The issue for me does not lie in the details or the personalities, but in history and historical forces. It's going in one direction, whatever the result next week. I agree with GDM and Bob Dylan about the times. In this instance, though, the issue has been clouded by personal interest and short-term fears, as well as nationalist feelings of one sort or the other. But the door is open now, even if they don't walk through it this time, in Scotland, Catalonia, the Basque country ... Didsbury.

Only the educated are free (Epicetus).

 

[johnnytapia]

There was no sense of Schadenfreude whatsoever in seeing you make such a mistake.

You've raised an interesting etymological point, in actual fact. Schadenfreude, it could very well be said, is a word that has fully passed into the English language, not least, as is well documented, because there is no single word equivalent in our tongue. On that basis would it be right that its use continued to follow German grammatical rules? Could it not be said, that it should be the case, in the course of its written 'English' use, that a lower case 's' is used, as it is now an 'English' word?

My default for any queries on punctuation is The Guardian Style Guide and it says....lower case "s". Du hast Recht!