Scottish Independence

[Metal Biker]

This which says to me it was never a principled stance but very much an anti Government/Tory/Farage/anyone who doesnt agree with me politically stance.

They are very happy to now argue for the very things they have for the last 3 years rallied against and said where impossible.

Electorates however have shown that nothing is impossible so if the Scots want it and can get another referendum in place then the best of luck to them.

It's odd isn't it, how the arguments for brexit are similar to those of IndyRef yet many Scottish remainers are blind to that fact.

Substitute UK for EU, Westminster for Brussels, House of Lords for EU Commission and their argument is exactly the same.

I'm neutral on the outcome, I have my preference obviously but I wouldn't oppose Scotland's decision to leave the UK. I wouldn't criticise or ridicule them for being "uneducated, stupid or didn't know what they were voting for". Things progress much easier when everyone is civil and understanding and there's been far too much emotion connected to these issues.

The people decide their aligiences, not the elected officials.

 

[Metal Biker]

Well mas several poster have pointed out, the reason the SNP are in government is they are seen as the best left of centre option by many that don't support independence. So they aren't a single policy party, nor are they a one man party and in that way nothing like the Brexit / UKIP party.

Neither Brexit nor UKIP have any relevance anymore. They achieved their aim. What is the SNP's aim?

The SNP needs to accept that Independence is not as popular as they like to claim it is. They are the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Independence Party.

If they are all about independence for Scotland they need to change their name and make the public declaration, so that voters who continue to vote for them can no longer hide behind that misunderstanding that a vote for SNP doesn't necessarily mean being supportive of independence for Scotland.

 

[blueparrot]

Neither Brexit nor UKIP have any relevance anymore. They achieved their aim. What is the SNP's aim?

The SNP needs to accept that Independence is not as popular as they like to claim it is. They are the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Independence Party.

If they are all about independence for Scotland they need to change their name and make the public declaration, so that voters who continue to vote for them can no longer hide behind that misunderstanding that a vote for SNP doesn't necessarily mean being supportive of independence for Scotland.

SNP aim, governing Scotland. Hopefully governing in a way to convince their support and the Scottish voters that they could govern an independent Scotland. There is no voter misunderstanding we all know that. Ruth Davidson did win voters back on domestic policy, that support has ebbed away again.
I may well be wrong here but seem to remember @blueinsa saying at one point he'd voted SNP as an alternative to Labour. Apologies if I'm mistaken.

 

[Metal Biker]

SNP aim governing Scotland. Hopefully governing in a way to convince their support and the Scottish voters that they could govern an independent Scotland. There is no voter misunderstanding we all know that. Ruth Davidson did win voters back on domestic policy, that support has ebbed away again.

So you'll answer this but not the question I posed to you, twice. Interesting.

The SNP feel their support from voters emboldens their opinion Scotland wants independence. Many do not, but the SNP conveniently ignores this fact.
They use terms like "the majority" inaccurately. They don't have the "majority" of Scottish people voting for them, they have 45% of those eligible to vote and of those who actually did vote. They are the largest party, yes, but the largest party does not have the majority of Scottish people supporting them, and not all those votes are supportive of the SNP's stance on independence.

They said the "Majority of Scottish people want to remain in the EU". Again inaccurate, as it was the majority of those who voted, and fewer Scottish voters turned out for the EU ref than they did the IndyRef.

The SNP is misleading voters and the nation as it is confusing to see the SNP gain so much support, and hear that it's supporters don't support Scottish Independence, only for the rest of the UK to continuously hear Sturgeons rhetoric.

 

[blueparrot]

So you'll answer this but not the question I posed to you, twice. Interesting.

The SNP feel their support from voters emboldens their opinion Scotland wants independence. Many do not, but the SNP conveniently ignores this fact.
They use terms like "the majority" inaccurately. They don't have the "majority" of Scottish people voting for them, they have 45% of those eligible to vote and of those who actually did vote. They are the largest party, yes, but the largest party does not have the majority of Scottish people supporting them, and not all those votes are supportive of the SNP's stance on independence.

They said the "Majority of Scottish people want to remain in the EU". Again inaccurate, as it was the majority of those who voted, and fewer Scottish voters turned out for the EU ref than they did the IndyRef.

The SNP is misleading voters and the nation as it is confusing to see the SNP gain so much support, and hear that it's supporters don't support Scottish Independence, only for the rest of the UK to continuously hear Sturgeons rhetoric.

Independence support is higher than SNP polling,some SNP support doesnt support independence, though he Greens support it too. Make of that what you will, it's getting way from what we were talking about which is how to reverse the growng support for independence.

 

[Ban-jani]

It's odd isn't it, how the arguments for brexit are similar to those of IndyRef yet many Scottish remainers are blind to that fact.

Substitute UK for EU, Westminster for Brussels, House of Lords for EU Commission and their argument is exactly the same.

I'm neutral on the outcome, I have my preference obviously but I wouldn't oppose Scotland's decision to leave the UK. I wouldn't criticise or ridicule them for being "uneducated, stupid or didn't know what they were voting for". Things progress much easier when everyone is civil and understanding and there's been far too much emotion connected to these issues.

The people decide their aligiences, not the elected officials.

They differ to me but there are similar principles.

It’s no secret that I’m opposed to Brexit but my opposition to Brexit is about 10% of my opposition to Scottish independence, as an idea.

Calling it Brexit on steroids, as I have done in the past, doesn’t really do the scale of colossal stupidity that is Scottish independence justice.

Not only does it weaken the UK and the economy in England, that affects me (the selfish reasons out the way), but more importantly it will destroy the Scottish economy and social fabric to the point many will end up in abject poverty.

This may sound like scaremongering and Scottish nationals might reply with their own version of “project fear” but it’s genuinely what I believe.

No idea on currency, no central bank, a border (which is inevitable), no funding for infrastructure from the rest of the nation, no army, a new police force, being out of both the EU and UK for several years, RBS and other Scottish institutions moving south and many more.

This is the reality on Independence Day for Scotland. They won’t be able to join the EU and maintain a close relationship with England. It’s an independent Scotland that has soft arrangements with England and that’s outside the EU or an independent Scotland that’s inside the EU but has a clean break from England.

My opinion is that triggering Article 50 should be the right and should be reasonable for any EU nation to do. Scottish independence isn’t reasonable in any way shape or form.

 

[blueparrot]

They differ to me but there are similar principles.

It’s no secret that I’m opposed to Brexit but my opposition to Brexit is about 10% of my opposition to Scottish independence, as an idea.

Calling it Brexit on steroids, as I have done in the past, doesn’t really do the scale of colossal stupidity that is Scottish independence justice.

Not only does it weaken the UK and the economy in England, that affects me (the selfish reasons out the way), but more importantly it will destroy the Scottish economy and social fabric to the point many will end up in abject poverty.

This may sound like scaremongering and Scottish nationals might reply with their own version of “project fear” but it’s genuinely what I believe.

No idea on currency, no central bank, a border (which is inevitable), no funding for infrastructure from the rest of the nation, no army, a new police force, being out of both the EU and UK for several years, RBS and other Scottish institutions moving south and many more.

This is the reality on Independence Day for Scotland. They won’t be able to join the EU and maintain a close relationship with England. It’s an independent Scotland that has soft arrangements with England and that’s outside the EU or an independent Scotland that’s inside the EU but has a clean break from England.

My opinion is that triggering Article 50 should be the right and should be reasonable for any EU nation to do. Scottish independence isn’t reasonable in any way shape or form.

So say for the sake of argument we accept all that, as we failed to avoid Brexit, what in your opinion, should we learn from that failure to avoid falling into the same trap with Scotland?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

It's odd isn't it, how the arguments for brexit are similar to those of IndyRef yet many Scottish remainers are blind to that fact.

Substitute UK for EU, Westminster for Brussels, House of Lords for EU Commission and their argument is exactly the same.

I'm neutral on the outcome, I have my preference obviously but I wouldn't oppose Scotland's decision to leave the UK. I wouldn't criticise or ridicule them for being "uneducated, stupid or didn't know what they were voting for". Things progress much easier when everyone is civil and understanding and there's been far too much emotion connected to these issues.

The people decide their aligiences, not the elected officials.

Good post

 

[Ban-jani]

So say for the sake of argument we accept all that, as we failed to avoid Brexit, what in your opinion, should we learn from that failure to avoid falling into the same trap with Scotland?

We need to hold Sturgeon to account properly. Every time the charlatan speaks or is interview she needs to be asked on currency, central bank, how long EU membership after independence will take, army, NHS, other infrastructure, border etc.

At the moment she’s getting away with just slagging off Westminster and the Tories.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

If you didn't mean it that way, then why post it in the first place under the line "It would seem that after brexit the mood is changing" if you didn't want people to think what you wanted them to?

That was a weird reply from you.

"Look everyone, here's a poll from Brexit Elects that shows how Scottish Independence is more popular!"

"52-48%? That's not that 'conclusive' Scottish Independence is more popular..."

"I never said it was..."

Ironically its the same %'s as the Brexit vote ............which had to be honoured .......... because Democracy