Super Joey Hart?

Big Blue Mick said:
Way down the list of personnel who need replacing at this club. When Pellegrini dropped him in 2013 there was a clamour to put Ruddy in for England; until he had a shocker at the Etihad and let in 7, of which he was at fault for 2. Jack Butland has been the media darlling this year, and he is a top keeper, but he fucked up onfriday. Hart has seen off Given, Schmeichel, Pants and Cabballero and there is reason; he is an excellent goalkeeper. For anyone going on about saving us points the save from Payet at the Boleyn was outstanding and we would have been humiliated against Barca last season. Hopfully will take our record appearances, record trophy winner and most ever england caps. Been there since the Stuart Pearce days so deserves a medal for surviving that.
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To call any keeper excellent, surely they must have to excel in all facets of the position. Not slagging Joe or wanting him to be shipped out, but IMO he doesn't possess greatness in all facets of keeping .
 
If we can get a good price on this Ter Stegen than I'm all for having some true competition(actually making Joe have to win back his place during a season) where we can rotate our keepers to ensure whoever is between the sticks is at peak performance.

I don't want Joe to leave though, those saying "not good enough" wouldn't know a good keeper if one slapped them in the face with their massive hand... look at ANY Joe Hart highlight real on youtube and it's littered with world class astonishing saves. Not only that but performances like against Dortmund, Bayern and Barca where he had man of the match performances, respect from all his peers on the opposite team... there's only one other PL goalkeeper who's come close to that level of performance on the biggest stage of them all (Forster) and he only managed that once which was enough to have everyone else saying he's the best GK for England.

He's proved it many times now and it's clear he IS world class(He's only going to get better plenty of years ahead as a keeper to improve) that said there are times where I feel he still maybe switches off or maybe it's just he's not up for it on some games because some of the goals he concedes you'd never see get past Neuer. Most recently Rashfords goal, well struck but hardly in the corner the kind of goal good keepers let in all the time but not World Class... he wasn't set properly when the shot was struck not focused, some of the goals conceded from set pieces such as corners have left me thinking "you never looked even close to getting to that where were you?"(not set, not in the right position).
 
karen7 said:
And yet he has won the golden glove a record 4th time and the other keepers in the league haven't and 2 of them have been with a crap defence in front of him and for a manager who hangs him out to dry most weeks,we have far more pressing problems than joe
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Maybe our defence is not as bad as some would have you believe ? Clean sheets cannot be attributed to the goalkeeper alone. Far more telling and particularly this season are the keepers shots to goals conceded ratios

On the basis of a 'keeping-goals-out rating’. Put simply, this is the number of goals a goalkeeper is expected to have conceded based on the shots they have faced, minus the actual total. Tottenham Hugo Lloris and De Gea post rates of 6.8 and 6.3 respectively but Hart is at 2.0 even Costel Pantilimon has a better rating than Hart.

Player Shots Gls conc. Exp'd gls conc. Keeping gls out
Lloris 106 30 36.8 6.8
De Gea 85 21 27.3 6.3
Fabianski 100 24 28.9 4.9
Adrian 99 26 30.2 4.2
Pantilimon 78 16 19.5 3.5
Szczesny 58 18 21.3 3.3
Hart 64 18 20.0 2.0
Forster 52 15 13.0 2.0

This stands up to my feeling about the number of times I am continually frustrated that our defence is rarely troubled then out of nowhere (particularly this season) we concede a goal with a teams first shot. I've lost count of the number of times that has happened.These stats was from February when we were quite well placed so I'm sure the stats will look even worse now. This also belies the notion that we have a poor defence - at least up until 15th Feb.

The one thing in his favour is the fact he is English and I am NOT saying he is a terrible keeper just that I think we could get better and I think Joe, who can make the most unbelievable saves, lets himself down. I'm convinced it's a concentration problem when he is largely underemployed in games and he switches off.

Harts best games have always come when we are under the cosh, Barcelona away being by far and away the best example, he was world class that night, however, he lets those standards slip in games where we are dominating and it has cost us several times this season - Liverpool away being the worst example. I could have saved that daisy cutter.

Would it be a priority for me, possibly not, but I can understand why Pep may be thinking about it, particularly when you start taking into account distribution..
 
Metalartin said:
If we can get a good price on this Ter Stegen than I'm all for having some true competition(actually making Joe have to win back his place during a season) where we can rotate our keepers to ensure whoever is between the sticks is at peak performance.

I don't want Joe to leave though, those saying "not good enough" wouldn't know a good keeper if one slapped them in the face with their massive hand... look at ANY Joe Hart highlight real on youtube and it's littered with world class astonishing saves. Not only that but performances like against Dortmund, Bayern and Barca where he had man of the match performances, respect from all his peers on the opposite team... there's only one other PL goalkeeper who's come close to that level of performance on the biggest stage of them all (Forster) and he only managed that once which was enough to have everyone else saying he's the best GK for England.

He's proved it many times now and it's clear he IS world class(He's only going to get better plenty of years ahead as a keeper to improve) that said there are times where I feel he still maybe switches off or maybe it's just he's not up for it on some games because some of the goals he concedes you'd never see get past Neuer. Most recently Rashfords goal, well struck but hardly in the corner the kind of goal good keepers let in all the time but not World Class... he wasn't set properly when the shot was struck not focused, some of the goals conceded from set pieces such as corners have left me thinking "you never looked even close to getting to that where were you?"(not set, not in the right position).
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I can find you a great show reel on You Tube for Georgios Samaras if you're interested ?
 
Blue Mooner said:
I can find you a great show reel on You Tube for Georgios Samaras if you're interested ?
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Brilliant argument that... would said highlight real compare favorably against the top players'(highlights) in the same position like Harts most certainly do? NO?... moving along then!
 
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Blue Mooner said:
Maybe our defence is not as bad as some would have you believe ? Clean sheets cannot be attributed to the goalkeeper alone. Far more telling and particularly this season are the keepers shots to goals conceded ratios

On the basis of a 'keeping-goals-out rating’. Put simply, this is the number of goals a goalkeeper is expected to have conceded based on the shots they have faced, minus the actual total. Tottenham Hugo Lloris and De Gea post rates of 6.8 and 6.3 respectively but Hart is at 2.0 even Costel Pantilimon has a better rating than Hart.

Player Shots Gls conc. Exp'd gls conc. Keeping gls out
Lloris 106 30 36.8 6.8
De Gea 85 21 27.3 6.3
Fabianski 100 24 28.9 4.9
Adrian 99 26 30.2 4.2
Pantilimon 78 16 19.5 3.5
Szczesny 58 18 21.3 3.3
Hart 64 18 20.0 2.0
Forster 52 15 13.0 2.0

This stands up to my feeling about the number of times I am continually frustrated that our defence is rarely troubled then out of nowhere (particularly this season) we concede a goal with a teams first shot. I've lost count of the number of times that has happened.These stats was from February when we were quite well placed so I'm sure the stats will look even worse now. This also belies the notion that we have a poor defence - at least up until 15th Feb.

The one thing in his favour is the fact he is English and I am NOT saying he is a terrible keeper just that I think we could get better and I think Joe, who can make the most unbelievable saves, lets himself down. I'm convinced it's a concentration problem when he is largely underemployed in games and he switches off.

Harts best games have always come when we are under the cosh, Barcelona away being by far and away the best example, he was world class that night, however, he lets those standards slip in games where we are dominating and it has cost us several times this season - Liverpool away being the worst example. I could have saved that daisy cutter.

Would it be a priority for me, possibly not, but I can understand why Pep may be thinking about it, particularly when you start taking into account distribution..
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Thank you for your reply,using my eyes the defence has parted and left joe with no protection numerous times,vinny or nico on their arses and demi running in treacle,i really don't know what you expect from joe,he can't get left exposed so often and not let goals in.Neur didn't look shit hot when juve were putting goals past him,they all have their faults but for me with a better drilled defensive unit under pep and learning new skills under a different coach then joe is more than worthy of the shirt
 
Metalartin said:
If we can get a good price on this Ter Stegen than I'm all for having some true competition(actually making Joe have to win back his place during a season) where we can rotate our keepers to ensure whoever is between the sticks is at peak performance.

I don't want Joe to leave though, those saying "not good enough" wouldn't know a good keeper if one slapped them in the face with their massive hand... look at ANY Joe Hart highlight real on youtube and it's littered with world class astonishing saves. Not only that but performances like against Dortmund, Bayern and Barca where he had man of the match performances, respect from all his peers on the opposite team... there's only one other PL goalkeeper who's come close to that level of performance on the biggest stage of them all (Forster) and he only managed that once which was enough to have everyone else saying he's the best GK for England.

He's proved it many times now and it's clear he IS world class(He's only going to get better plenty of years ahead as a keeper to improve) that said there are times where I feel he still maybe switches off or maybe it's just he's not up for it on some games because some of the goals he concedes you'd never see get past Neuer. Most recently Rashfords goal, well struck but hardly in the corner the kind of goal good keepers let in all the time but not World Class... he wasn't set properly when the shot was struck not focused, some of the goals conceded from set pieces such as corners have left me thinking "you never looked even close to getting to that where were you?"(not set, not in the right position).
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I'm afraid your post has confused the hell out of me. Are you stating in one sentence that Joe is world class only to pick holes in him in your next?
 
mosssideblue said:
I'm afraid your post has confused the hell out of me. Are you stating in one sentence that Joe is world class only to pick holes in him in your next?
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Do you not think Neuer has his weaknesses or off games? It's simple he's put in performances that are top top level against the very best teams on the planet on the biggest stage of them all... it wasn't just a one off game he really is that good when he's at the top of his game. I started the post by saying it will be good for Joe if we have someone who will genuinely be good enough to force Joe out when he's not at his best.
 
Metalartin said:
Do you not think Neuer has his weaknesses or off games? It's simple he's put in performances that are top top level against the very best teams on the planet on the biggest stage of them all... it wasn't just a one off game he really is that good when he's at the top of his game. I started the post by saying it will be good for Joe if we have someone who will genuinely be good enough to force Joe out when he's not at his best.
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Of course, all keepers can have mares, maybe I misinterpreted your post.

Personally I think Joe is an excellent shot stopper. After that, I don't particularly feel he excels at all in other aspects of keeping.
 
mosssideblue said:
You know it's past 12 noon :)
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Deadly serious, don't think he's a great keeper at all, distribution is awfull, doesn't command his box & doesn't move his feet along the line to adjust his position, especially for free kicks. Like I said , average.
 
Brilliant as a keeper, not so good as a footballer.
His distribution is far less important than his shot stopping. His stats will be back to the top one or two once we stop pissing about with the defence.
 
Blue Mooner said:
Maybe our defence is not as bad as some would have you believe ? Clean sheets cannot be attributed to the goalkeeper alone. Far more telling and particularly this season are the keepers shots to goals conceded ratios

On the basis of a 'keeping-goals-out rating’. Put simply, this is the number of goals a goalkeeper is expected to have conceded based on the shots they have faced, minus the actual total. Tottenham Hugo Lloris and De Gea post rates of 6.8 and 6.3 respectively but Hart is at 2.0 even Costel Pantilimon has a better rating than Hart.

Player Shots Gls conc. Exp'd gls conc. Keeping gls out
Lloris 106 30 36.8 6.8
De Gea 85 21 27.3 6.3
Fabianski 100 24 28.9 4.9
Adrian 99 26 30.2 4.2
Pantilimon 78 16 19.5 3.5
Szczesny 58 18 21.3 3.3
Hart 64 18 20.0 2.0
Forster 52 15 13.0 2.0

This stands up to my feeling about the number of times I am continually frustrated that our defence is rarely troubled then out of nowhere (particularly this season) we concede a goal with a teams first shot. I've lost count of the number of times that has happened.These stats was from February when we were quite well placed so I'm sure the stats will look even worse now. This also belies the notion that we have a poor defence - at least up until 15th Feb.

The one thing in his favour is the fact he is English and I am NOT saying he is a terrible keeper just that I think we could get better and I think Joe, who can make the most unbelievable saves, lets himself down. I'm convinced it's a concentration problem when he is largely underemployed in games and he switches off.

Harts best games have always come when we are under the cosh, Barcelona away being by far and away the best example, he was world class that night, however, he lets those standards slip in games where we are dominating and it has cost us several times this season - Liverpool away being the worst example. I could have saved that daisy cutter.

Would it be a priority for me, possibly not, but I can understand why Pep may be thinking about it, particularly when you start taking into account distribution..
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Here's a fantastic illustration of this -
2016-03-21-pl-def.png


We dominate possession against mid and lower table teams, so we don't face many shots.

Better teams see more of the ball, take more shots and we concede bucketloads of goals against them.

Hart may well win the golden glove again, not because our defence is good, but because Yaya, Nasri, Fernandinho, Navas and Silva may just keep the ball enough that we get a few more clean sheets.

I think Pellegrini knows this as well and it's one of the reasons he's sucked the adventure out of Sterlings game, making ball retention the biggest priority.
 
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