The Conservative Party

[inbetween]

That’s true but no one could have predicted the sheer scale and devastation that 2008 was going to cause, well almost no one (I have watched the Big Short).

I am not against running a deficit and increasing spending if it is necessary to investment in the country’s infrastructure at the time and I believe we needed it when New Labour came to power.

The question is do you plan for the worse or hope for the best? They weren't responsible for the crash but the excess spending definitely left us in a position where government finances were vulnerable to a large scale crash.

The spending might be judged as necessary but how did it pay off? The debt interest repayments today are 4% of GDP, for comparison purposes we spend less on defence (2%) and not much more on the NHS (7%)!

Get Corbyn in and it will get worse and the major government expenditure will be debt interest repayments. We will all pay our tax and an increasing chunk of it will basically get thrown in the bin.

With his spending plans he will tax the rich and basically give it back to them with interest because the rich will be the ones buying up the government bonds to issue the debt!

 

[Ban-jani]

The question is do you plan for the worse or hope for the best? They weren't responsible for the crash but the excess spending definitely left us in a position where government finances were vulnerable to a large scale crash.

The spending might be judged as necessary but how did it pay off? The debt interest repayments today are 4% of GDP, for comparison purposes we spend less on defence (2%) and not much more on the NHS (7%)!

Get Corbyn in and it will get worse and the major government expenditure will be debt interest repayments. We will all pay our tax and an increasing chunk of it will basically get thrown in the bin.

With his spending plans he will tax the rich and basically give it back to them with interest because the rich will be the ones buying up the government bonds to issue the debt!

What’s the alternative, never invest any money to make people’s lives better?

If you’re always preparing for the worst you’ll have a government constantly withholding money in the case of a global financial crash.

What if that doesn’t come, to the scale of 2008?

 

[Ban-jani]

I'm not against it either for short term stimulus, but that's not what it was being used for. It was structural, persistent, overspending.

You talk about it being needed? What were the 100+ tax increases for? On the back of global growth and rising GDP, the tax take rose dramatically: that is what we should have used to fund infrastucture and other investment. But no, that wasn't enough, we had to persistently keep borrowing as well and that I think was a mistake. They overspent. Remember the fateful note? "I'm afraid there is no money left". Because Blair and Brown had spent it all, and more.

(Edit, and funnily enough re no-one could have predicted the scale of the crash, my dad did. He was a quite brilliant man and kept telling me it was coming throughout 2006, 2007. He was retired by then and didn't trade on money markets so he was in no position to short anything, but he certainly told me to get my savings under FSA protection limits and not to keep it all in Natwest. The idea that Natwest might go bust, back in 2006/7 was considered ridiculous, but dad saw it coming a mile off.)

It wasn’t enough, the country was going through a dramatic improvement in many areas, the NHS oversaw tens of thousands of more nurses for example, to keep up with the demand.

The amount of borrowing that was going on would have been fine to reverse but then 2008 happened.

I said “almost no one”, I’m aware that some talented people did predict it.

Very impressive by your old man.

 

[Chippy_boy]

It wasn’t enough, the country was going through a dramatic improvement in many areas, the NHS oversaw tens of thousands of more nurses for example, to keep up with the demand.

I don't agree it (tax increases) wasn't enough. Or more specifically, whether or not it was enough, is not the point. We spent money we did not have, and whilst that's OK for a year or so, it's not imo OK for nearly a decade. If there was really no alternative to spending the amounts Labour spent (and personally I dispute that) then they should have been upfront about it and explain the need for the necessary tax rises. Not continued with sneaky stealth taxes hoping no-one would notice and layering borrowing upon borrowing until the cupboard was beyond bare.

Of course they'd have probably been kicked out earlier had that been the approach, which is presumably why they went down the borrowing ever more route.

 

[Ban-jani]

I don't agree it (tax increases) wasn't enough. Or more specifically, whether or not it was enough, is not the point. We spent money we did not have, and whilst that's OK for a year or so, it's not imo OK for nearly a decade. If there was really no alternative to spending the amounts Labour spent (and personally I dispute that) then they should have been upfront about it and explain the need for the necessary tax rises. Not continued with sneaky stealth taxes hoping no-one would notice and layering borrowing upon borrowing until the cupboard was beyond bare.

Of course they'd have probably been kicked out earlier had that been the approach, which is presumably why they went down the borrowing ever more route.

Well I think the argument would turn to how much our infrastructure needed improving and I would say New Labour did a brilliant job of making these improvements. 1997-2007 was a golden era in British life.

It’s also worth noting that the Tories, before New Labour, also borrowed too.

I’d just say that we’ll never know what would have happened without the financial crash and how the following 20 years of New Labour’s plan would have turned out.

To be honest we’re not going to agree on this. I do appreciate your point of view and think you have a point in significant borrowing, I’m also not convinced mass borrowing is the way to go at this moment in time, consider the mess we’re in.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Well I think the argument would turn to how much our infrastructure needed improving and I would say New Labour did a brilliant job of making these improvements. 1997-2007 was a golden era in British life.

Of course, everyone loves it when cash is being splashed around. They aren't loving it so much now though are they, and after 8 years of pulling our reigns in. It's like hating your Mum for taking you to the dentist for a load of fillings after your Dad let you binge on sweets and not bother brushing your teeth. But the sweets were great.

It’s also worth noting that the Tories, before New Labour, also borrowed too.

Of course. I didn't say all borrowing was bad, but persistent, year on year increases in borrowing, not to fund infrastructure but to plug a fundamental and structural revenue-cost gap is definitely bad.

I’d just say that we’ll never know what would have happened without the financial crash and how the following 20 years of New Labour’s plan would have turned out.

To be honest we’re not going to agree on this. I do appreciate your point of view and think you have a point in significant borrowing, I’m also not convinced mass borrowing is the way to go at this moment in time, consider the mess we’re in.

To be honest, this has been one of the most reasonable debates on the thread, and actually one I have enjoyed. You seem like a reasonable and balanced person and I agree with much you have to say. I think where we differ is more about emphasis and amounts rather than principles per se. I definitely think the Tory mantra of endless cuts almost irrespective of social consequences is wrong. But equally Labour are unelectable at the moment with (effectively) Marxists running the show who would doubtless care not one jot about trashing the economy for short term gain.

 

[Ban-jani]

Of course, everyone loves it when cash is being splashed around. They aren't loving it so much now though are they, and after 8 years of pulling our reigns in. It's like hating your Mum for taking you to the dentist for a load of fillings after your Dad let you binge on sweets and not bother brushing your teeth. But the sweets were great.

Of course. I didn't say all borrowing was bad, but persistent, year on year increases in borrowing, not to fund infrastructure but to plug a fundamental and structural revenue-cost gap is definitely bad.



To be honest, this has been one of the most reasonable debates on the thread, and actually one I have enjoyed. You seem like a reasonable and balanced person and I agree with much you have to say. I think where we differ is more about emphasis and amounts rather than principles per se. I definitely think the Tory mantra of endless cuts almost irrespective of social consequences is wrong. But equally Labour are unelectable at the moment with (effectively) Marxists running the show who would doubtless care not one jot about trashing the economy for short term gain.

Haha the first point is a good analogy but then again I would say the 2008 crash is what’s caused 8/9 years of austerity. I’m not someone who’s quick to bash the Tories on the point of reducing the deficit, I think many just look at the cuts and scream monsters at them, when they’re doing it to balance the books and ensure the country’s economy moves in the right direction.

I’m not sure austerity would have been ever needed should that crash in 2008 happened.

Yeah it’s been a good chat, I think we do agree in the main it’s just a point of agreeing at what point do you draw the line and how much 2000-2010’s borrowing contributed to the situation we are in. Being someone close to the centre of politics, I can see pro’s and con’s from both the Tories and Labour and I’m not in the camp of saying all Tories are evil, I’m aware many have the views they do because they think it will help the country. I just think they deserve a good fucking kicking for the Brexit mess and I’d like to see both major parties fail.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I can see pro’s and con’s from both the Tories and Labour and I’m not in the camp of saying all Tories are evil, I’m aware many have the views they do because they think it will help the country. I just think they deserve a good fucking kicking for the Brexit mess and I’d like to see both major parties fail.

On that we most definitely agree!

 

[Len Rum]

Dear me. You critcise austerity AND the increase in debt. Make your mind up.

No problem there mate.
The reductions in corporation tax and taxes for the wealthy might have had something to do with the increase in national debt.
As indeed did the austerity programme of 2010-2012 which sent the economy into recession thereby reducing growth and tax revenues.
Alistair Darling ( remember him) had a more sensible economic programme in 2010 of modest cuts in public spending whilst spending to invest in capital projects,infrastructure etc.

 

[The perfect fumble]

Health secretary Matt Hancock:

Voting Conservative “used to be something people started to think about doing when they got their first pay cheque – now it’s when they get their first winter fuel allowance.”

Going, going, gone.