The Conservative Party

Vic said:
I'd think that calling people cretins and idiots goes some way to explaining your disdain.

NHS and care homes in crisis, transport services desperate for drivers, food rotting in fields (all forcing up prices). No immigration means a declining population with a "working class" (anyone who works?) paying ever higher tax for benefits and pensions for those who don't work. It's unsustainable.

I can't work out whether you like supply and demand. But the growth of industrial cities like Manchester was because the demand for labour was satisfied by immigration, supplied from rural areas where the mechanisation that enabled the industrial revolution also cost jobs on farms.

I think you just don't like foreigners.
Click to expand...

"I can't understand your (simple) immigration position so I presume you're a racist or xenophobe".

Looks like I won the bingo
 
Folk should read and fully understand exactly what @Damocles has said here.

Accusing him of racism etc is rather silly but sadly par for the course in here.

Business has to pay people a living fucking wage. It can’t keep expecting benefits to subsidise wages and it can’t expect what is fast becoming almost slave labour conditions and it will if we allow it to use imported cheap Labour, happy to work for fuck all!

What gives?
 
bluethrunthru said:
But what if you have to offer £30 per hour - a sum that will bankrupt your firm? And the only reason you have to offer that sum is because there are 100 vacancies in your firm and they make up part of the 1.2m bodies that are missing from the workforce. So there is a demand for workers that supply cannot support.
Click to expand...

It CAN support it. You pay higher wages to attract applicants from people who pay less and then over time the wages reach an equilibrium. That's the whole game.

bluethrunthru said:
Do you

a/ - pay that sum - risk your livelihood and that of everyone who works for you and at the same time risk distorting the market and costing the economy many firms and jobs? Maybe the answer is yes and we can just import the shortfall in goods from abroad which is ruinous for us all?

B/ - refuse to pay the necessary amount and manage the gradual decline to closure of your business with the outcomes broadly as above?

c/- export production to somewhere else in the world - keep your personal income but enrich the economies of competitors and the prospects of people working there for you where you may be able to pay them even less and import your goods into the UK with all the issues that causes?

there are many aspects to the conundrum but if we want to remain competitive there will need to be immigration - there are ways to control numbers ( its just successive govts here have refused to actively engage in using them ) and you could legislate to control wages to prevent undercutting ( its just that the govt - or more accurately their donors haven't wanted to do that for the past 12 years ).
Click to expand...

My point is so simple that it almost blows people's minds looking for complexity that is not there.

If I wanted to start a business building spaceships but I cannot afford the spaceship building machine, then I cannot afford to be in business.

If I want to start a farm but cannot afford to purchase any land or a tractor, then I cannot afford to be in business.

If I want to start a genetic engineering lab but cannot afford to pay any genetic engineers, then I cannot afford to be in business.

If you have a firm that cannot afford to pay workers a living wage, then you cannot afford to be in business.

This is what I mean when I say how simple it is. There are slight complexities when it comes to certain goods or services which for one reason or another require Government subsidies, but for the main then this applies.
There is a labour pool. That labour pool will choose to put its career and efforts into the highest paying jobs and creates a cascade. If that labour pool has decided not to sell you its labour for the price you are quoting then see above.

This is entirely how the system is supposed to work but successive generations have forgotten this formula and now want to introduce outside variables such as global immigration in order to slant the equation. And there has become this almost religious worship of business in terms of how hard it must be protected and maintained and subsidised at the cost of rising wages to meet the equilibrium. Bollocks, you can either afford to be in business or you cannot generally speaking.

bluethrunthru said:
You are aware that there almost as many people being granted visa's to stay and work here as there always has been? Its just that they are now mostly from the Far East, Pacific Rim, India and Pakistan and other non-EU countries. That is why they are focussing on people crossing in boats. Its an artificial set up breaking laws and conventions exacerbated by leaving the EU and therefore the Dublin Agreement which would allow for return designed to get you looking that way and tutting whilst the Govt simply allow people to come here anyway. Over 1.3m visa's were granted in 2021 - 56% up on the previous year. All through 2021 did Johnson, did Patel did any of them tell you that or did they point to people coming across in dinghies?
Click to expand...

I couldn't give any less of a fuck about this type of partisan shit rhetoric. "Oh you're a Tory", "oh, you're a racist", "oh, they lied to you". You feel free to keep that type of nonsense bickering between others, my point is entirely based on the theory of immigration on the supply/demand equilibrium.
 
blueinsa said:
Folk should read and fully understand exactly what @Damocles has said here.

Accusing him of racism etc is rather silly but sadly par for the course in here.

Business has to pay people a living fucking wage. It can’t keep expecting benefits to subsidise wages and it can’t expect what is fast becoming almost slave labour conditions and it will if we allow it to use imported cheap Labour, happy to work for fuck all!

What gives?
Click to expand...


The Tax payer gives as that is ultimately the source of the benefits paid to (often) people in full time employment. The employers then pay sweet FA in taxes in the UK . The system is wrong and an effort was made to correct it by the introduction of minimum wage (by Labour) but still largely ignored by many employers as no enforcement is in place.

IMG_2224.PNG


The lower/medium paid worker who pays tax is footing the bill ...... blaming immigration is not the solution . ('cos thats what they want you to do)
 
Damocles said:
It CAN support it. You pay higher wages to attract applicants from people who pay less and then over time the wages reach an equilibrium. That's the whole game.



My point is so simple that it almost blows people's minds looking for complexity that is not there.

If I wanted to start a business building spaceships but I cannot afford the spaceship building machine, then I cannot afford to be in business.

If I want to start a farm but cannot afford to purchase any land or a tractor, then I cannot afford to be in business.

If I want to start a genetic engineering lab but cannot afford to pay any genetic engineers, then I cannot afford to be in business.

If you have a firm that cannot afford to pay workers a living wage, then you cannot afford to be in business.

This is what I mean when I say how simple it is. There are slight complexities when it comes to certain goods or services which for one reason or another require Government subsidies, but for the main then this applies.
There is a labour pool. That labour pool will choose to put its career and efforts into the highest paying jobs and creates a cascade. If that labour pool has decided not to sell you its labour for the price you are quoting then see above.

This is entirely how the system is supposed to work but successive generations have forgotten this formula and now want to introduce outside variables such as global immigration in order to slant the equation. And there has become this almost religious worship of business in terms of how hard it must be protected and maintained and subsidised at the cost of rising wages to meet the equilibrium. Bollocks, you can either afford to be in business or you cannot generally speaking.



I couldn't give any less of a fuck about this type of partisan shit rhetoric. "Oh you're a Tory", "oh, you're a racist", "oh, they lied to you". You feel free to keep that type of nonsense bickering between others, my point is entirely based on the theory of immigration on the supply/demand equilibrium.
Click to expand...

and my answer was that demand is there but supply isn't hence labour problems - what do you do with pay that magically creates 1.2m idle workers who are not in the economy suddenly be in the economy to do the jobs at whatever rate of pay?
 
Ifwecouldjust....... said:
The Tax payer gives as that is ultimately the source of the benefits paid to (often) people in full time employment. The employers then pay sweet FA in taxes in the UK . The system is wrong and an effort was made to correct it by the introduction of minimum wage (by Labour) but still largely ignored by many employers as no enforcement is in place.

View attachment 52835


The lower/medium paid worker who pays tax is footing the bill ...... blaming immigration is not the solution . ('cos thats what they want you to do)
Click to expand...

I have said time and time again we should not be subsidising employers and their shareholders like this - its a con and the taxpayer is the mark
 
bluethrunthru said:
and my answer was that demand is there but supply isn't hence labour problems - what do you do with pay that magically creates 1.2m idle workers who are not in the economy suddenly be in the economy to do the jobs at whatever rate of pay?
Click to expand...

But unless you're literally the only company in the country that is doing that thing, then there ARE others in the labour pool. Businesses have to compete for labour in the extreme ends of the market in the same way that labour have to compete for jobs at the extreme end of the other side. In fact, the entire recruitment industry is built off of this idea of competition for great labour.

You've intertwined the notions here of "there is no supply at this pricepoint" with "there is no supply" and they're not the same thing.

When Tesco complain that they are missing X amount of workers, it's not that we're vastly underpopulated, it's that Tesco are not paying a high enough wage to attract workers from other industries to stock the shelves.

If the labour pool is missing 1.2m workers then this should be the greatest golden age in the post war history of the UK as wages would be skyrocketing as businesses compete for labour as is the promise of the invisible hand of the market. Instead wages are stagnating, that tells you everything you need to know.
 
megamind-he-digital.png
 
Damocles said:
But unless you're literally the only company in the country that is doing that thing, then there ARE others in the labour pool. Businesses have to compete for labour in the extreme ends of the market in the same way that labour have to compete for jobs at the extreme end of the other side. In fact, the entire recruitment industry is built off of this idea of competition for great labour.

You've intertwined the notions here of "there is no supply at this pricepoint" with "there is no supply" and they're not the same thing.

When Tesco complain that they are missing X amount of workers, it's not that we're vastly underpopulated, it's that Tesco are not paying a high enough wage to attract workers from other industries to stock the shelves.

If the labour pool is missing 1.2m workers then this should be the greatest golden age in the post war history of the UK as wages would be skyrocketing as businesses compete for labour as is the promise of the invisible hand of the market. Instead wages are stagnating, that tells you everything you need to know.
Click to expand...

nobody can thrive with that sort of hole in the workforce numbers - and wages were stagnant in the years preceding our exit of the EU - its a deliberate political policy that is doing it
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Unread Posts

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top
✖
  AdBlock Detected
Bluemoon relies on advertising to pay our hosting fees. Please support the site by disabling your ad blocking software to help keep the forum sustainable. Thanks.