The Derby Post Match Thread

[Paul_Powers_Tash]

FFP didn't make us lose to Burnley, Palace or even United - it really didn't

Actually, indirectly it did.

The whole game is based around money. When the new regime came in there weren't the restrictions that are in place now and we were able to spend what we wanted when we wanted to. As a result we assembled the nucleus of the 2012 Championship winning team with the likes of Hart, Zabaletta, Kompany, Toure, Silve and Aguero, all of them arguably world class. Last close season, with the FFP restrictions in place, we weren't able to spend the same sort of money (whereas the likes of united could) and didn't appreciably improve the squad. Which leads us to where we are today with an aging team who look tired and complacent.

A good model is to bring in one or two top class players every year as well as blood one or two youngsters. That way they integrate into the team and you have continuity and players hungry for success. The players we bought in the close season and since are not top players, we bought quantity over quality. Magala must have looked good on paper but hasn't cut it. God knows what happened to make us buy Fernando. Is Bony world class? And when was the last time we saw a player from a very successful youth set up break into the first team for a run of games?

Looking to the future we have to come up with a workable strategy of getting the best players available and also stay within FFP rules. For instance we need to replace Yaya, not just because of his performances but because his massive wage bill is causing us FFP problems.

The root of our problems now are due to not being able to use money we have but can't spend, and a woeful set of choices when we have spent. This squad is the fifth oldest in Europe and we're going to have to invest heavily over the next couple of years to get us back on track. If we can under FFP regulations. Not getting Champions League status next season will not only make it harder to attract top quality players but will also impact on our ability to spend to get the right men for the job.

Like it or not, FFP has a massive bearing over how City and playing now and how we'll do over the next few seasons.

I agree with this. We need a fresh injection of top class talent evry year. Not loads, but one or two top players to keep the hunger and put other players on their toes.
With the recent handicap we bought second level who won't push for starting places.

We can blame FFP but the lessons of today don't really back that up. Yes it is important to have a talented squad and I think we already have that; its essential, not important, that we use that talent effectively.

Nine of the eleven United team that took us to the cleaners for 60 minutes today played under David Moyes. The only two additions were Daily Blind who for me is nothing more than a good solid pro and Anders Herrera who is a poor mans Fabregas. Did these two players really make the difference? I doubt it. I think it's clear to anyone who understands that game that it was the managers work throughout the season on the training ground that made the difference. The fitness, the tactical understanding, the desire and hunger, the awareness of our weaknesses and how to expose them etc etc

Bottom line is spend all the money that you like but without the right manager you're wasting your time. FFP isn't the problem.

As for our squad getting old, its a line that was started by Gary Neville and everyone has swallowed it. Chelsea won the Champions League because their team had EXPERIENCE!!! How gullible are we FFS!!!

 

[Danielmanc]

Actually, indirectly it did.

The whole game is based around money. When the new regime came in there weren't the restrictions that are in place now and we were able to spend what we wanted when we wanted to. As a result we assembled the nucleus of the 2012 Championship winning team with the likes of Hart, Zabaletta, Kompany, Toure, Silve and Aguero, all of them arguably world class. Last close season, with the FFP restrictions in place, we weren't able to spend the same sort of money (whereas the likes of united could) and didn't appreciably improve the squad. Which leads us to where we are today with an aging team who look tired and complacent.

A good model is to bring in one or two top class players every year as well as blood one or two youngsters. That way they integrate into the team and you have continuity and players hungry for success. The players we bought in the close season and since are not top players, we bought quantity over quality. Magala must have looked good on paper but hasn't cut it. God knows what happened to make us buy Fernando. Is Bony world class? And when was the last time we saw a player from a very successful youth set up break into the first team for a run of games?

Looking to the future we have to come up with a workable strategy of getting the best players available and also stay within FFP rules. For instance we need to replace Yaya, not just because of his performances but because his massive wage bill is causing us FFP problems.

The root of our problems now are due to not being able to use money we have but can't spend, and a woeful set of choices when we have spent. This squad is the fifth oldest in Europe and we're going to have to invest heavily over the next couple of years to get us back on track. If we can under FFP regulations. Not getting Champions League status next season will not only make it harder to attract top quality players but will also impact on our ability to spend to get the right men for the job.

Like it or not, FFP has a massive bearing over how City and playing now and how we'll do over the next few seasons.

I agree with this. We need a fresh injection of top class talent evry year. Not loads, but one or two top players to keep the hunger and put other players on their toes.
With the recent handicap we bought second level who won't push for starting places.

We can blame FFP but the lessons of today don't really back that up. Yes it is important to have a talented squad and I think we already have that; its essential, not important, that we use that talent effectively.

Nine of the eleven United team that took us to the cleaners for 60 minutes today played under David Moyes. The only two additions were Daily Blind who for me is nothing more than a good solid pro and Anders Herrera who is a poor mans Fabregas. Did these two players really make the difference? I doubt it. I think it's clear to anyone who understands that game that it was the managers work throughout the season on the training ground that made the difference. The fitness, the tactical understanding, the desire and hunger, the awareness of our weaknesses and how to expose them etc etc

Bottom line is spend all the money that you like but without the right manager you're wasting your time. FFP isn't the problem.

As for our squad getting old, its a line that was started by Gary Neville and everyone has swallowed it. Chelsea won the Champions League because their team had EXPERIENCE!!! How gullible are we FFS!!!

I agree.

FFP aside - should this side be able to get something against Burnley ? Palace ? Van Gall's United ? I think they should.

 

[Paul_Powers_Tash]

If you read the bit of Bellamy's autobiography where he signed for Liverpool, he talks about Benitez. He didn't really relate to him as a person but he said he was the most tactically aware manager he'd ever worked with. They didn't do five-a-sides in training, like we seem to do, but focused almost exclusively on the tactical situations they were planning to use in the next game and on nullifying the opponents' strengths. They'd practice these routines ad nauseam.



Does anyone think we prepare to that level?

It's abundantly clear we don't even think about the opposition imo.

I've never seen MP do anything as a proactive measure to counter an opponent's strengths.

MP's approach is clearly one of we've got the 'best players; so we'll outscore you. This is great when the machinery is working and the players are motivated and 'into it' but it's one hell of a risk to be putting yourself in a position where you need to be scoring 2,3,4 goals to win games of football.

Imagine Mourinho with this set of players? I think we'd absolutely walk this league.

true

but it wouldn't be nice and ''holistic''

being ''holistic'' is apparently more important than winning

Didn't Mancini ban footballs in training when he first took over from Hughes until they understood their roles and team shape during the various phases of play? We now look like eleven players given a football at kick off and told to go and play.

 

[Paul_Powers_Tash]

What I can't get my head round is, what was the preparation for this game?? Surely the coaching staff must have twigged that Fellaini would be a major focal point for their attacks yet there was no obvious attempt to man-mark him. Instead he was allowed to pull away onto each full back for their first two goals. I accept that you could never leave a man-marking job to Yaya in his current mood but why was no alternative attempted?

If you read the bit of Bellamy's autobiography where he signed for Liverpool, he talks about Benitez. He didn't really relate to him as a person but he said he was the most tactically aware manager he'd ever worked with. They didn't do five-a-sides in training, like we seem to do, but focused almost exclusively on the tactical situations they were planning to use in the next game and on nullifying the opponents' strengths. They'd practice these routines ad nauseam.

He would use video analysis to go through the opposition’s strengths and weaknesses. Our preparation for games was extremely thorough. Nothing was left to chance.

Does anyone think we prepare to that level?

It's abundantly clear we don't even think about the opposition imo.

I've never seen MP do anything as a proactive measure to counter an opponent's strengths.

MP's approach is clearly one of we've got the 'best players; so we'll outscore you. This is great when the machinery is working and the players are motivated and 'into it' but it's one hell of a risk to be putting yourself in a position where you need to be scoring 2,3,4 goals to win games of football.

Imagine Mourinho with this set of players? I think we'd absolutely walk this league.

I couldn't agree more. As damming on the players as it is, I think they have given up on this manager because he repeatedly sets them up to fail.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

FFP didn't make us lose to Burnley, Palace or even United - it really didn't

Actually, indirectly it did.

The whole game is based around money.

FFP doesn't make our corners shit, either directly or indirectly. It doesn't make our tactics poor or account for individual performances.

And blaming FFP ignores one simple fact - the intention was always to run the club on a financially sustainable basis so whether we like it or not, we have to live within our means, which means buying wisely & getting the best out of what we have.

 

[Brad mcfc]

Dreading work Tomoz, it's been a while since they've had the bragging rights !

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Dreading work Tomoz, it's been a while since they've had the bragging rights !

We went 12 whole seasons, 24 games, with just the 5-1 to brag about. Let them have their brag as they've forgotten what it's like, plus it won't do some of our fans any harm to learn what it's like after getting tonked in a Derby match.

 

[TheRisingoftheNorth]

on another note.

3 minutes injury time?

there were 6 subs. 30 seconds are added for each.

3 goals. 30 seconds for each.

thats 4 and a half minutes. rounded up to 5.

That's just what I was thinking - Fergie-time in reverse. And I thought it was 45 seconds per sub.
On the other hand, the City players weren't up for it anyway - they had given up by then

 

[city2]

We can all blame the managers tactics, ffp, Toure navas. The bottom line is these players are not delivering end off, to me a rebuild is needed and if we don't finish in the top 4 then our targets will change and we won't get the top players we desperately need to begin a new cycle.

 

[prestonibbo_mcfc]

Dreading work Tomoz, it's been a while since they've had the bragging rights !

We went 12 whole seasons, 24 games, with just the 5-1 to brag about. Let them have their brag as they've forgotten what it's like, plus it won't do some of our fans any harm to learn what it's like after getting tonked in a Derby match.

Just take it on the chin. It's easy they can't punch hard enough.
There's always plenty to throw back ;-)

Metaphorically speaking of course.