The Labour Government

[Vic]

Caught lol. Didn't know who Adam Smith was and don't care. But if that makes you and Kobayashi feel better, you guys go for it.

We were having a debate about IHT, I stand by the points I made, it's a deeply unpopular tax in the UK, always has been and I suspect always will be.

It is quite amusing seeing you guys trying to defend every possible policy Labour may bring in or not. A couple of months ago you would of no doubt have been slaughtering the Tories for exactly the same policies. But now the boot is on the other foot .....

Bluntly, your not knowing who Adam Smith was is not a great qualification for commenting about others' views on economics or taxation.

Taxes on estates were not invented by Labour. When death duties meant Lord Grantham might not be able to keep Downton in the family, death duties were not "deeply unpopular". If they are now, that's as much to do with media owned by millionaires as it is to a realistic assessment of who pays what.

I'll not identify the writers, but here are two quotes to consider.

"Nothing is more offensive to the vast majority of ordinary taxpayers, most of whom are subject to PAYE, than the knowledge that people far better off than themselves are avoiding taxation by exploiting loopholes in the existing law. If the existing estate duty operated effectively, the great concentrations of private wealth would already have been broken up and with them many of the unfair advantages enjoyed by generation after generation of the heirs and relatives of wealthy men. In practice, however, the estate duty has always been a largely avoidable, indeed, a voluntary, tax."

"Already, for the 1960s generation, it looks as if about a quarter of the difference in lifetime living standards between those with rich and poor parents is being driven by inheritance. For those born in the 1980s that’s likely to rise to a third.
The real winners here are the poor children of rich parents. For them inheritance will be especially important. It effectively insures them against bad luck, lack of talent, or sloth. No such safety net for the more numerous poorer children of poorer parents. For the rich children of rich parents, meanwhile, inheritance is just another bonus along the way, a bonus that will serve to exacerbate already growing inequalities."

 

[metalblue]

Well both you and I would like to think so but the leaks from inside government (small g) are currently like the "Nightmare before Christmas".
I guess it's to make us feel happier about what taxes we eventually get. Sort of "Phew look what we could have got!
The trouble is if you scare the business and investment horses too much, the economy could well suddenly stop growing and UK PLC suddenly nose dives towards recession.

It’s like council tax, they trail that “it’s going up 15% next year” so you’re happy when it “only” goes up 9%

 

[metalblue]

But if you die and leave a home worth over £500k then, by dint of the fact they’ve just been given a free house worth over £500k, they are immediately wealthy. They’ve just been given an asset that cost them zilch and it is worth over £500k. They haven’t paid a single penny in tax to gain possession of the asset. It’s been given to them free of charge.
And it absolutely should be taxable. Personally I’d throw in a further band of £1m, above which every penny is taxable at a rate of 100%.
Nobody, but nobody, should “need” a free gift worth more than £1m. Not when we have people sleeping on our streets, and people waiting years for crucial health treatment.

Tax these selfish bastards until the pips squeak.

Taxation has to be fair if you expect people to pay it. Not driven by jealousy and anger, else folk will put it in trust funds.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Bluntly, your not knowing who Adam Smith was is not a great qualification for commenting about others' views on economics or taxation.

Taxes on estates were not invented by Labour. When death duties meant Lord Grantham might not be able to keep Downton in the family, death duties were not "deeply unpopular". If they are now, that's as much to do with media owned by millionaires as it is to a realistic assessment of who pays what.

I'll not identify the writers, but here are two quotes to consider.

"Nothing is more offensive to the vast majority of ordinary taxpayers, most of whom are subject to PAYE, than the knowledge that people far better off than themselves are avoiding taxation by exploiting loopholes in the existing law. If the existing estate duty operated effectively, the great concentrations of private wealth would already have been broken up and with them many of the unfair advantages enjoyed by generation after generation of the heirs and relatives of wealthy men. In practice, however, the estate duty has always been a largely avoidable, indeed, a voluntary, tax."

"Already, for the 1960s generation, it looks as if about a quarter of the difference in lifetime living standards between those with rich and poor parents is being driven by inheritance. For those born in the 1980s that’s likely to rise to a third.
The real winners here are the poor children of rich parents. For them inheritance will be especially important. It effectively insures them against bad luck, lack of talent, or sloth. No such safety net for the more numerous poorer children of poorer parents. For the rich children of rich parents, meanwhile, inheritance is just another bonus along the way, a bonus that will serve to exacerbate already growing inequalities."

Mate, I have my views on the tax system , a system that I have paid into throughout my life both as an individual and as a business owner. I base my views on these experiences, sometimes I agree with Governments, sometimes I don't.
You may have guessed from some of my posts that I happened to dissagree with many of the last governments tax policies. I am looking forward to what our new government will offer, and am optimistic that Reeves will be a good Chancellor, but I will judge her on her record, not on the party she represents. Am I greatly read on economics? certainly not, but that shouldn't stop me forming my own opinion, despite you thinking otherwise.

I believe and want a fair tax system That's it essentially it. I'm not against IHT per see but consider it should not be too onerous. What I consider onerous is likely to differ from what others think. I've worked hard all my life, but wasnt fortunate enough to inherit anything for reasons beyond my control. I would personally like to give my children a better chance in life by passing on as many of my assets as I can. Have a good day.

 

[Vic]

It’s like council tax, they trail that “it’s going up 15% next year” so you’re happy when it “only” goes up 9%

Now if everyone who didn't need the winter fuel allowance spent it on a 9% increase in council tax the council could keep more libraries open for a warm space for those who do need it.

 

[Kompany Car]

Every time we have one of these types of discussions we hear the term "hardworking people". I don't know if they've published it recently but the last two times the ISSP published data in this space, what is striking is that in the vast majority of countries the hours worked by the top and lowest decile income workers are either about the same or the lowest income decile workers work longer hours than than the highest income decile workers. I think in Belgium and maybe Germany the highest income workers work a few hours more than the lowest earners but apart from those two, broadly speaking people at the bottom of the income scale either work harder or as hard for a fraction of the income.

This is not to have a pop at the concept of being hard working but simply to point out that in an of itself it has little to do with the amount of income/wealth one generates.

To quote a line from a movie when somebody said that they worked hard, the response was "So do washing machines".

 

[Chippy_boy]

Notice you didn't come back to me about your hilarious 10m people claim, the car less bit, the sxi bit and Blackpool bit is called an exaggeration counter argument to show how silly your argument was you silly sod, you didn't get it you dumb ass.

Why are you so offensive all the time?

I did come back to you about the car less bit. I told you that I did not say rich people have all forgone car ownership. Not that any such explanation was needed because it was fucking obvious "the car they didn't buy" does not mean "they never bought any car, ever".

And as to the sxi and Blackpool bit? No idea what you are talking about, did you write it? If so, somewhat - like hugely - ironic that you can use exaggeration to illustrate a point, but apparently I cannot under your rules.

 

[hilts]

Spoilt? Jesus Christ you are clueless. Genuinely, I mean that. You have no idea of my personal circumstances.

I said when it comes to money, I never said anything about your personal circumstances or if you are loaded or not i dont care but you have history on this subject,.
You're not very good at this debating lark how you afforded Chippy towers and the surrounding moat is beyond me(blast from the past) :-)

 

[Millwallawayveteran1988]

Every time we have one of these types of discussions we hear the term "hardworking people". I don't know if they've published it recently but the last two times the ISSP published data in this space, what is striking is that in the vast majority of countries the hours worked by the top and lowest decile income workers are either about the same or the lowest income decile workers work longer hours than than the highest income decile workers. I think in Belgium and maybe Germany the highest income workers work a few hours more than the lowest earners but apart from those two, broadly speaking people at the bottom of the income scale either work harder or as hard for a fraction of the income.

This is not to have a pop at the concept of being hard working but simply to point out that in an of itself it has little to do with the amount of income/wealth one generates.

Indeed. The hardest worker I know is my cleaner! She is on her feet from 9 til 7 working 2 jobs but is paid just above minimum wage by her employer (not me :-). Hard work doesn’t always mean more success from a financial perspective.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I said when it comes to money, I never said anything about your personal circumstances or if you are loaded or not i dont care but you have history on this subject,.
You're not very good at this debating lark how you afforded Chippy towers and the surrounding moat is beyond me(blast from the past) :-)

Thank-you for the smiley at least.

Good point about Chippy Towers and the moat. Symptomatic of people just not being able to get their head around me sticking up for the better off/wealthy despite me not actually being wealthy.