The Labour Government

[bluethrunthru]

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

Is that Jeremy the one that bought a 1000 acres for £4.5 mil so that he didn’t have to pay any tax to the government, which was a big thing for him and his family, then when the actual farmer retired, built a mansion on the property, which is now worth approx £13 mil?

I do wonder why these people are complaining?

To be fair that’s one person. Large numbers of farmers aren’t wealthy and make little to no profit

 

[bluenova]

Farmers where an endangered species back in 2016 for them.

These days they’re seemingly the enemy.

I keep hearing the phrase “rich farmers” which is a bit of a major giveaway for our class warriors I’m afraid.

I think the phrase "rich farmers" comes up a lot, because that's who is really driving this debate, and who is really going to be affected.

I've heard from Clarkson, Dyson, and Lloyd-Webber telling me that it's the small family farmers they care about, but not much from the farmers with the farms worth £2m or less, which surely is the majority?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I think Teresa May talked about putting a trading tax on international business and Obama and Trump basically threatened the UK with punitive measures if she went after US companies that avoided paying. corporation tax in the UK.
During the Brexit debate she also threatened to lower UK corporation tax to the same levels as Ireland, ie 12.5%. At the time this was met by dismay by the Varadkah who basically stated that this would destroy Irelands economy which is based on being a tax haven for UK companies. Subsequent to that Rishi Sunack announced in early 2021 that he would raise UK Corporation tax from 19 to 25%, while at the same time agreeing to a 15% tax rate for international companies to be brought in at some time in the future. The US sugested 20% but Sunack and others wanted 15%. By the way this international rate has still to be implemented and given the particular way the UK tax is weighted many companies actually end up paying 26%. Sunack probably had vested interests given his wifes families business, he clearly favoured big business over SMEs as opposed to Osbourne and Hammond before him who gradually reduced it for UK based companies.

There’s never likely to be an agreement on percentage. Everyone wants something slightly different.

It does need sorting as it’s a massive black hole in public finances.

 

[bluethrunthru]

To be fair that’s one person. Large numbers of farmers aren’t wealthy and make little to no profit

female farmer on our local news just now bleating about the tax. She says if she drops dead tomorrow her kids face a £500k bill - sorry but a day after a report revealed something like one third of adults and half of kids are living in poverty I have no sympathy for someone who has an asset worth at least £3.5m crying about paying tax when that tax is needed to feed kids. Her kids maybe would face a £500k but when if ever did they last go to bed hungry?

 

[bluethrunthru]

the "right" sort of demo?

 

[metalblue]

If you can come up with a way of making these global companies pay their tax due in each of the countries they do business in, there will be around 200 countries waiting to implement your rules.

Pillar 2 is the next step in this. They are working on it.

 

[metalblue]

Pleased we have finally established that the issue is not the IHT but the potential threshold. Proposed threshold is £1m and the IHT rate is 20% above that figure (note threshold could be as high as £3m for a couple taking into account other allowances).

The average farm is worth around £2m (below the potential £3m threshold). Most farms are worth less than that. So, here’s the deal. Raise the threshold to £1.5m and increase the payment window to 15 years from 10 years.

That way we can fuck wealthy cunts and leave poor old Farmer Ted alone, or at worst with a reduced bill.

Sounds like a winner to me.

It’s not the threshold. It’s the affordability of it for those that have to pay it. They don’t earn enough to mortgage the land to pay for it. That’s where the anger is coming from.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Pillar 2 is the next step in this. They are working on it.

Then working tax credits need to go too.

 

[mackenzie]

Farmers where an endangered species back in 2016 for them.

These days they’re seemingly the enemy.

I keep hearing the phrase “rich farmers” which is a bit of a major giveaway for our class warriors I’m afraid.

I don't really have an informed decision on all this farmer issue, but I do know that many are skint.
My ex husband's bachelor Uncle was a farmer. Worked every single day of his life from taking over the farm in 1964 until his death (aged 82) in 2009. Never had a days holiday in that time, ever.
The farmhouse was falling down around him in the last few years and my ex went every weekend (from about 1988) to help him with the heavier stuff around the farm.
Geoff loved that farm, to the point that when he was on the point of death at Rochdale Infirmary (prostate cancer) he insisted on going "home."
We got him there and he died within 10 mins. Even now it upsets me to remember it.

I think I'm just saying that not all farmers are cash rich.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I don't really have an informed decision on all this farmer issue, but I do know that many are skint.
My ex husband's bachelor Uncle was a farmer. Worked every single day of his life from taking over the farm in 1964 until his death (aged 82) in 2009. Never had a days holiday in that time, ever.
The farmhouse was falling down around him in the last few years and my ex went every weekend (from about 1988) to help him with the heavier stuff around the farm.
Geoff loved that farm, to the point that when he was on the point of death at Rochdale Infirmary (prostate cancer) he insisted on going "home."
We got him there and he died within 10 mins. Even now it upsets me to remember it.

I think I'm just saying that not all farmers are cash rich.

I live on the edge of the North Yorkshire Moors - town is full of moaning farmers who claim to be skint hill farmers. When you drive over the moors all the farmhouses are lovely. Fields are full of healthy sheep and to be fair a lot of them drive quite old cars and pick-ups but they will tell you they know the value of a car so they won't put sheep or hay bales in a Range Rover - the wives drive them. And their insufferable offspring all drive Corsa's and quad bikes like twats too.

 

[BobKowalski]

It’s not the threshold. It’s the affordability of it for those that have to pay it. They don’t earn enough to mortgage the land to pay for it. That’s where the anger is coming from.

Really? And increasing the payment threshold for farmers is not helping that affordability by exempting them from the tax? Very odd.

Surely, the principle of exempting the majority of working farms and targeting the land speculators who drove up land prices is both just and fair.

 

[WestGorton]

Never met a poor farmer. I am sure they exist but not the landowning ones.

 

[bluethrunthru]

when the farmers go back and work on the farm tomorrow and Thursday what will the impact be on farm productivity? Will anyone notice? Before striking they need to ask themselves that question.
When doctors were on strike appointments etc were impacted.
Train drivers went on strike people couldn't get to work.
If a dairy farmer strikes (against his own business profitability ??!! ) he has to get someone to milk the cows or face huge issues and vets bills.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Never met a poor farmer. I am sure they exist but not the landowning ones.

Mostly tenant farmers in that bracket who can have their land sold from under them so it won't enter into any calculation of their tax liability

 

[mackenzie]

I live on the edge of the North Yorkshire Moors - town is full of moaning farmers who claim to be skint hill farmers. When you drive over the moors all the farmhouses are lovely. Fields are full of healthy sheep and to be fair a lot of them drive quite old cars and pick-ups but they will tell you they know the value of a car so they won't put sheep or hay bales in a Range Rover - the wives drive them. And their insufferable offspring all drive Corsa's and quad bikes like twats too.

I don't doubt what you are saying there is true, I'm just pointing out that many farmers have a completely different experience.
Geoff never wanted "riches", he just wanted to be able to do what he loved.
And he effing HATED Edwina Currie with a sodding passion!

 

[WestGorton]

Mostly tenant farmers in that bracket who can have their land sold from under them so it won't enter into any calculation of their tax liability

The facts show this is a fair tax so far. It's is only 20 per cent rather than 40 per cent for non farmers like everyone else.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Surely, the principle of exempting the majority of working farms and targeting the land speculators who drove up land prices is both just and fair.

They seem to have mostly entered the market when the tax was deleted in 1984 quadrupling the cost of land so there could be two positive side effects for them which they will see if they take their heads out of Clarksons arse.

1/ if its not a tax dodge then its not attractive to speculators. Land values could fall or the gap could eventually close as there is no longer an exponential annual rise in value.
2/ if that happens the value of their land is less so the tax liability reduces - in any event having introduced the tax the govt is likely to adjust upwards too so the threshold could also change.

Sadly people have once again allowed themselves to be played by vest interests without reading into it and taking tax planning advice.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I don't doubt what you are saying there is true, I'm just pointing out that many farmers have a completely different experience.
Geoff never wanted "riches", he just wanted to be able to do what he loved.
And he effing HATED Edwina Currie with a sodding passion!

its also likely given your description Geoff's farm would have a zero IHT liability

 

[metalblue]

Really? And increasing the payment threshold for farmers is not helping that affordability by exempting them from the tax? Very odd.

Surely, the principle of exempting the majority of working farms and targeting the land speculators who drove up land prices is both just and fair.

Not sure how else to put it really. Its is an established fact that farmers are asset rich and cash poor. The issue is how they afford to pay IHT - and here they are likely facing one choice - sell some of the asset.

Now if the government said they’d bring in something like the milk marketing board (for milk and food) and/or increase tariffs on imported food then we’d be getting somewhere. Farmers would see an increase in earnings - which we’d pay for at the supermarket - and might be able to afford to mortgage to pay the IHT.