The Labour Government

Just listening to Corbyn on Sky news. To conclude his interview, he said he could not believe that a Labour government could take 5 billion out of disabled people's benefits.

Today I read an interesting snippet concerning the breakdown of UK taxation and where it all goes. Apparently, we're assigning 7.5 billion to foreign aid, so why can we not deduct the 5 billion from this and still offer an amazing 2.5 billion to our overseas contingent.
 
Last edited:
My son is maybe half way to getting a flat now. I'll have to pay 6 months rent up front though, on his behalf.
These last 5 months have been horrendous. Both financially and emotionally whilst I struggle to support him.
The Government needs to address mental health issues and housing as a matter of upmost importance.
So many mental health issues are exacerbated by the sheer negligence of real infrastructure.

I'm sorry, but when people say "asylum seekers only get a hotel room, that's all...."then I'd suggest that they live in our shoes for just one day. It's been absolutely horrendous.
 
Chancellors statement tomorrow and as could have been predicted by almost anyone with an unbiased understanding of the workings of our economy and the importance of business sentiment, the OBR will cut the growth forecast and confirm that the Government has in fact borrowed more than projected ( who would have thought !) thus piling pressure on the chancellor to at least look like she will make an effort to balance the books.
All a week before businesses have to simultaneously swallow the N.I. Increase and the Increase in the Living wage, Pubs and restaurants will have their business rate relief reduced from 75 to 40 % , lower Stamp Duty kicks back in at 2% whilst continuing to fret about energy costs and green levy. Council Taxes rising and inflation still above target. It will be grim and the worst is still to come though she will blame the need to increase Defence spending etc .
In my view much of this is her own doing and she is beyond redemption and should go but I note the gnashing of teeth at the proposed cuts to Welfare and spending and the view of some that as a Labour Chancellor she should instead be choosing to " tax the rich" instead. I understand the sentiment but really ? .
Taxes are already at a post war high. As for the rich..
The Top 1% already pay 28.2% of all income tax. In 2005/6 that figure was 22.7%
The Top 10% already pay 60.2 % of all income tax. In 2005/6 that figure was 52.9%
And they don't pay their fair share ?
It could be said that part of that is reflection of widening wealth disparity and there may be an argument for some additional levy on the Super rich but as the government have found out with the Non - Dom debacle, these things tend not to pan out as now more than ever before the most wealthy can simply move their affairs to somewhere else in the world with a more relaxed tax regime. Already an ever-increasing number of brightest and most entrepreneurial are heading to Dubai etc , it would be a mistake to encourage this further.
Some 7 million taxpayers now pay some of their income at the 40% tax rate, 2.5 million more than would have done had the last government not frozen the threshold. In 2010 only 3.3M paid some tax in the higher band. Those with Student loans to re-pay will find themselves at this rate plus their loan re-payments with marginal rates over 60% on part of their earnings.
At the other end of the scale 35.6 % of the adult population pay no income tax at all.
Essentially, we have 28 million workers in the private sector who support 9 million economically inactive adults, 6 million public sector workers and 13 million pensioners. That is not sustainable and that to be fair is not down to Reeves and forget the supposed black hole - this is the real poison chalice she has inherited.
We are getting to the situation where those that don't work and pay tax are lecturing those that do on how much tax they should pay like they have some sort of moral high ground - they don't ! If ever there was an example of the tail wagging the dog then this must be it.
So Reeves having shafted the growth she claimed she would champion has nowhere to go for more tax ( though I am sure she will find somewhere in any event, but nothing like enough)
So cuts it must be...
Welfare cuts of £5 Billion by the end of the Parliament. There is no point in me re-stating the numbers that others have done before but given the scale of the spending, the ever-increasing number of claimants and the case that the system rewards people for categorising themselves as sick / disabled it appears to me that the system is abused. £5 Billion , not even now, by the end of the Parliament is a token amount given the sheer scale of the spend.
Beveridge's five giants of Idleness, Ignorance, Disease, Squalor and Want - How have we done ? I think a big tick for Disease, a massive improvement on Want, and a long way to go on Squalor. Ignorance gone backwards , Idleness is the UK's boom industry !
Aside from the 9 million economically inactive, millions more are caught in the working benefits trap , disincentivised to work hard and bereft of aspiration, stuck in a generational cycle of limited life chances.
Welfare was never supposed to be this. 80 years of the Welfare state and it is being tested to destruction in what is a shameful waste of human capital and money.
The rising economies of Asia have learned from our mistakes. The Chinese Communist Party believe that Welfarism like ours prolongs poverty as it disincentivises people from working hard and saving - on the evidence it is hard to disagree.
That said, of course there should be proper Welfare provision for those that genuinely cannot work and contribute to their own maintenance. Some of the posters on here have described their own circumstances and for people in such poor health then it should be within the means of our society to make provision for them. Unfortunately, too many who could provide themselves but do not have brought us to where we are now which put simply is that Welfare will either need to be less generous for all or more targeted. My preference is for more targeted but unfortunately that will mean more tests etc and I can but hope that those in genuine need are not impacted and I hope those in poor health and in need of support on this forum understand that and I genuinely would not want to deny you the support you should rightly receive.
A cut of £5 Billion in Welfare and move against PIP . I would rather cut our Asylum bill of £5.38 billion. Fat chance of that as the Migrant hotels that Starmer said he was going to close - well no he's not , they're going to be used for years to come according to the Home office and they will of course as the numbers are going up.
Similarly, I would prefer to have fewer of the migrants who are here to support the economy actually doing the opposite and not have 1.2 million of them on benefits claiming £7.5 billion in Universal credit .
How we can have a national conversation about reducing the welfare bill and causing anxiety to the genuinely sick and disabled and not call this out I don't know.
A £2 Billion cut in the Civil service - again playing at the margins . Headcount has gone up by 129,000 since 2016 . Productivity is still below Covid level . Cant think why ?
Actually get them to turn up to work and it will be amazing what could be saved.
We will see what else turns up tomorrow but as a final thought..
I have seen this government described on this forum by its supporters frequently and recently as " the adults in the room " or the ' adults back in charge" They are patently the opposite. They are much more students union politicians with no experience of the real world or an understanding of the consequences of their actions. That said , whilst I think they will not go anywhere near far enough in reducing the role of the state they are showing signs that they are able to adapt and understand that the solutions to our problems may not be what they once believed. So whilst I am not optimistic, I will be hoping for the best tomorrow and if she does go further in the very necessary cuts in spending I for one will support her .
 
Chancellors statement tomorrow and as could have been predicted by almost anyone with an unbiased understanding of the workings of our economy and the importance of business sentiment, the OBR will cut the growth forecast and confirm that the Government has in fact borrowed more than projected ( who would have thought !) thus piling pressure on the chancellor to at least look like she will make an effort to balance the books.
All a week before businesses have to simultaneously swallow the N.I. Increase and the Increase in the Living wage, Pubs and restaurants will have their business rate relief reduced from 75 to 40 % , lower Stamp Duty kicks back in at 2% whilst continuing to fret about energy costs and green levy. Council Taxes rising and inflation still above target. It will be grim and the worst is still to come though she will blame the need to increase Defence spending etc .
In my view much of this is her own doing and she is beyond redemption and should go but I note the gnashing of teeth at the proposed cuts to Welfare and spending and the view of some that as a Labour Chancellor she should instead be choosing to " tax the rich" instead. I understand the sentiment but really ? .
Taxes are already at a post war high. As for the rich..
The Top 1% already pay 28.2% of all income tax. In 2005/6 that figure was 22.7%
The Top 10% already pay 60.2 % of all income tax. In 2005/6 that figure was 52.9%
And they don't pay their fair share ?
It could be said that part of that is reflection of widening wealth disparity and there may be an argument for some additional levy on the Super rich but as the government have found out with the Non - Dom debacle, these things tend not to pan out as now more than ever before the most wealthy can simply move their affairs to somewhere else in the world with a more relaxed tax regime. Already an ever-increasing number of brightest and most entrepreneurial are heading to Dubai etc , it would be a mistake to encourage this further.
Some 7 million taxpayers now pay some of their income at the 40% tax rate, 2.5 million more than would have done had the last government not frozen the threshold. In 2010 only 3.3M paid some tax in the higher band. Those with Student loans to re-pay will find themselves at this rate plus their loan re-payments with marginal rates over 60% on part of their earnings.
At the other end of the scale 35.6 % of the adult population pay no income tax at all.
Essentially, we have 28 million workers in the private sector who support 9 million economically inactive adults, 6 million public sector workers and 13 million pensioners. That is not sustainable and that to be fair is not down to Reeves and forget the supposed black hole - this is the real poison chalice she has inherited.
We are getting to the situation where those that don't work and pay tax are lecturing those that do on how much tax they should pay like they have some sort of moral high ground - they don't ! If ever there was an example of the tail wagging the dog then this must be it.
So Reeves having shafted the growth she claimed she would champion has nowhere to go for more tax ( though I am sure she will find somewhere in any event, but nothing like enough)
So cuts it must be...
Welfare cuts of £5 Billion by the end of the Parliament. There is no point in me re-stating the numbers that others have done before but given the scale of the spending, the ever-increasing number of claimants and the case that the system rewards people for categorising themselves as sick / disabled it appears to me that the system is abused. £5 Billion , not even now, by the end of the Parliament is a token amount given the sheer scale of the spend.
Beveridge's five giants of Idleness, Ignorance, Disease, Squalor and Want - How have we done ? I think a big tick for Disease, a massive improvement on Want, and a long way to go on Squalor. Ignorance gone backwards , Idleness is the UK's boom industry !
Aside from the 9 million economically inactive, millions more are caught in the working benefits trap , disincentivised to work hard and bereft of aspiration, stuck in a generational cycle of limited life chances.
Welfare was never supposed to be this. 80 years of the Welfare state and it is being tested to destruction in what is a shameful waste of human capital and money.
The rising economies of Asia have learned from our mistakes. The Chinese Communist Party believe that Welfarism like ours prolongs poverty as it disincentivises people from working hard and saving - on the evidence it is hard to disagree.
That said, of course there should be proper Welfare provision for those that genuinely cannot work and contribute to their own maintenance. Some of the posters on here have described their own circumstances and for people in such poor health then it should be within the means of our society to make provision for them. Unfortunately, too many who could provide themselves but do not have brought us to where we are now which put simply is that Welfare will either need to be less generous for all or more targeted. My preference is for more targeted but unfortunately that will mean more tests etc and I can but hope that those in genuine need are not impacted and I hope those in poor health and in need of support on this forum understand that and I genuinely would not want to deny you the support you should rightly receive.
A cut of £5 Billion in Welfare and move against PIP . I would rather cut our Asylum bill of £5.38 billion. Fat chance of that as the Migrant hotels that Starmer said he was going to close - well no he's not , they're going to be used for years to come according to the Home office and they will of course as the numbers are going up.
Similarly, I would prefer to have fewer of the migrants who are here to support the economy actually doing the opposite and not have 1.2 million of them on benefits claiming £7.5 billion in Universal credit .
How we can have a national conversation about reducing the welfare bill and causing anxiety to the genuinely sick and disabled and not call this out I don't know.
A £2 Billion cut in the Civil service - again playing at the margins . Headcount has gone up by 129,000 since 2016 . Productivity is still below Covid level . Cant think why ?
Actually get them to turn up to work and it will be amazing what could be saved.
We will see what else turns up tomorrow but as a final thought..
I have seen this government described on this forum by its supporters frequently and recently as " the adults in the room " or the ' adults back in charge" They are patently the opposite. They are much more students union politicians with no experience of the real world or an understanding of the consequences of their actions. That said , whilst I think they will not go anywhere near far enough in reducing the role of the state they are showing signs that they are able to adapt and understand that the solutions to our problems may not be what they once believed. So whilst I am not optimistic, I will be hoping for the best tomorrow and if she does go further in the very necessary cuts in spending I for one will support her .
The truth is often in the "middle" yet some refuse to accept it.
 
This is a common problem on any threads which mention money. They literally become a "poor" vs "rich" debate but in reality everything is relative. One persons rich is anothers doing ok and the same with the definition of poor.

All it does is divide the 99% who sit and argue about who should pay a particular tax or get a particular benefit. Meanwhile the top 1% let them crack on with fighting over the scraps as it deliberately prevents them focusing on their wealth.

Its just a different version of this meme...
View attachment 150884
Presuming the guy in the middle represents the 1% do you really think he has an interest in stirring tensions about immigration ? Who really benefits from mass immigration ? Does the WEF support mass immigration ? You bet it does because it reduces wages and creates more customers for mass produced goods . The notion that the ruling elite create tensions around immigration to distract attention from their wealth is laughable - just Marxism.
Do another one with a migrant in the middle pointing to a rich guy on the left saying to the hard hat guy that the reason his wages aren't rising, why he can't find social housing or a reasonable rent or get a doctors appointment is because he is a billionaire.
 
My son is maybe half way to getting a flat now. I'll have to pay 6 months rent up front though, on his behalf.
These last 5 months have been horrendous. Both financially and emotionally whilst I struggle to support him.
The Government needs to address mental health issues and housing as a matter of upmost importance.
So many mental health issues are exacerbated by the sheer negligence of real infrastructure.

I'm sorry, but when people say "asylum seekers only get a hotel room, that's all...."then I'd suggest that they live in our shoes for just one day. It's been absolutely horrendous.
Thank God these are the issues that the government are dealing with. Huge investment in mental health, massive reform to building regulations, and dealing with asylum seeker claimants to confirm if eligible, or not, deporting those that aren’t.

So hard when we see our family struggle, and good on you for looking after yours.
 
Presuming the guy in the middle represents the 1% do you really think he has an interest in stirring tensions about immigration ? Who really benefits from mass immigration ? Does the WEF support mass immigration ? You bet it does because it reduces wages and creates more customers for mass produced goods . The notion that the ruling elite create tensions around immigration to distract attention from their wealth is laughable - just Marxism.
Do another one with a migrant in the middle pointing to a rich guy on the left saying to the hard hat guy that the reason his wages aren't rising, why he can't find social housing or a reasonable rent or get a doctors appointment is because he is a billionaire.
Sorry I didn't make it clear, its not about immigration, the meme was misleading. The point I was trying to make was the 99% sit and point at one another far too much as the source of their problems or the reason why the country is not working. You see it on here, on social media and in general. Rather than all pointing at the common cause of their problems which is the top 1%.

Why are the poorer in society not paid decent wages, to protect the profit margins and hence the wealth of the owners. Why are those in what most would call the middle class having their disposable income eroded faster than anyone else, because the top 1% dont pay their fair share of tax, so are an easy target to fill the gap.

Its getting to the situation where you will only have rich and poor, no middle class just those with significant wealth and those without.
 
Chancellors statement tomorrow and as could have been predicted by almost anyone with an unbiased understanding of the workings of our economy and the importance of business sentiment, the OBR will cut the growth forecast and confirm that the Government has in fact borrowed more than projected ( who would have thought !) thus piling pressure on the chancellor to at least look like she will make an effort to balance the books.
All a week before businesses have to simultaneously swallow the N.I. Increase and the Increase in the Living wage, Pubs and restaurants will have their business rate relief reduced from 75 to 40 % , lower Stamp Duty kicks back in at 2% whilst continuing to fret about energy costs and green levy. Council Taxes rising and inflation still above target. It will be grim and the worst is still to come though she will blame the need to increase Defence spending etc .
In my view much of this is her own doing and she is beyond redemption and should go but I note the gnashing of teeth at the proposed cuts to Welfare and spending and the view of some that as a Labour Chancellor she should instead be choosing to " tax the rich" instead. I understand the sentiment but really ? .
Taxes are already at a post war high. As for the rich..
The Top 1% already pay 28.2% of all income tax. In 2005/6 that figure was 22.7%
The Top 10% already pay 60.2 % of all income tax. In 2005/6 that figure was 52.9%
And they don't pay their fair share ?
It could be said that part of that is reflection of widening wealth disparity and there may be an argument for some additional levy on the Super rich but as the government have found out with the Non - Dom debacle, these things tend not to pan out as now more than ever before the most wealthy can simply move their affairs to somewhere else in the world with a more relaxed tax regime. Already an ever-increasing number of brightest and most entrepreneurial are heading to Dubai etc , it would be a mistake to encourage this further.
Some 7 million taxpayers now pay some of their income at the 40% tax rate, 2.5 million more than would have done had the last government not frozen the threshold. In 2010 only 3.3M paid some tax in the higher band. Those with Student loans to re-pay will find themselves at this rate plus their loan re-payments with marginal rates over 60% on part of their earnings.
At the other end of the scale 35.6 % of the adult population pay no income tax at all.
Essentially, we have 28 million workers in the private sector who support 9 million economically inactive adults, 6 million public sector workers and 13 million pensioners. That is not sustainable and that to be fair is not down to Reeves and forget the supposed black hole - this is the real poison chalice she has inherited.
We are getting to the situation where those that don't work and pay tax are lecturing those that do on how much tax they should pay like they have some sort of moral high ground - they don't ! If ever there was an example of the tail wagging the dog then this must be it.
So Reeves having shafted the growth she claimed she would champion has nowhere to go for more tax ( though I am sure she will find somewhere in any event, but nothing like enough)
So cuts it must be...
Welfare cuts of £5 Billion by the end of the Parliament. There is no point in me re-stating the numbers that others have done before but given the scale of the spending, the ever-increasing number of claimants and the case that the system rewards people for categorising themselves as sick / disabled it appears to me that the system is abused. £5 Billion , not even now, by the end of the Parliament is a token amount given the sheer scale of the spend.
Beveridge's five giants of Idleness, Ignorance, Disease, Squalor and Want - How have we done ? I think a big tick for Disease, a massive improvement on Want, and a long way to go on Squalor. Ignorance gone backwards , Idleness is the UK's boom industry !
Aside from the 9 million economically inactive, millions more are caught in the working benefits trap , disincentivised to work hard and bereft of aspiration, stuck in a generational cycle of limited life chances.
Welfare was never supposed to be this. 80 years of the Welfare state and it is being tested to destruction in what is a shameful waste of human capital and money.
The rising economies of Asia have learned from our mistakes. The Chinese Communist Party believe that Welfarism like ours prolongs poverty as it disincentivises people from working hard and saving - on the evidence it is hard to disagree.
That said, of course there should be proper Welfare provision for those that genuinely cannot work and contribute to their own maintenance. Some of the posters on here have described their own circumstances and for people in such poor health then it should be within the means of our society to make provision for them. Unfortunately, too many who could provide themselves but do not have brought us to where we are now which put simply is that Welfare will either need to be less generous for all or more targeted. My preference is for more targeted but unfortunately that will mean more tests etc and I can but hope that those in genuine need are not impacted and I hope those in poor health and in need of support on this forum understand that and I genuinely would not want to deny you the support you should rightly receive.
A cut of £5 Billion in Welfare and move against PIP . I would rather cut our Asylum bill of £5.38 billion. Fat chance of that as the Migrant hotels that Starmer said he was going to close - well no he's not , they're going to be used for years to come according to the Home office and they will of course as the numbers are going up.
Similarly, I would prefer to have fewer of the migrants who are here to support the economy actually doing the opposite and not have 1.2 million of them on benefits claiming £7.5 billion in Universal credit .
How we can have a national conversation about reducing the welfare bill and causing anxiety to the genuinely sick and disabled and not call this out I don't know.
A £2 Billion cut in the Civil service - again playing at the margins . Headcount has gone up by 129,000 since 2016 . Productivity is still below Covid level . Cant think why ?
Actually get them to turn up to work and it will be amazing what could be saved.
We will see what else turns up tomorrow but as a final thought..
I have seen this government described on this forum by its supporters frequently and recently as " the adults in the room " or the ' adults back in charge" They are patently the opposite. They are much more students union politicians with no experience of the real world or an understanding of the consequences of their actions. That said , whilst I think they will not go anywhere near far enough in reducing the role of the state they are showing signs that they are able to adapt and understand that the solutions to our problems may not be what they once believed. So whilst I am not optimistic, I will be hoping for the best tomorrow and if she does go further in the very necessary cuts in spending I for one will support her .

A couple of points. Public sector workers pay tax. A lot of Pensioners pay tax and some have received additional tax demands for interest earned on savings accounts for the 24/25 tax year - my 87 year old mum is still outraged by this. My pointing out that income tax is based on what you earn did not go down well.

Head count in the Civil Service was inevitably going to increase after Brexit as Brexit requires a larger state to manage a reduced economy. It’s what people voted for and what they got. Making Civil Servants go into the office is performative politics. The illusion of doing something which makes no difference. Ditto whipping them at their desks for greater efficiency.

Some of the nine million economically inactive still pay tax. I should know as technically I am one. Too young to qualify for state pension and not actively looking for work. This obviously doesn’t mean no income hence I pay tax. I also pay tax on things I buy or for services.

We have migration because we have a labour shortage. You may decry the ‘economically inactive’ and ‘idlers’ for this labour shortage, but it exists and industry, both private and public, requires foreign labour. That’s the reality.

Finally, good luck in distinguishing between the idlers and the genuinely sick. People dodging work and scamming the system is the price we pay for a Welfare State. The only real solution is to abolish the Welfare State and Healthcare. The sick will die and the healthy will work. It will be a key economic plank of Reform. They will even have a catchy slogan like ‘Work is Freedom’ or something like that.
 
Yes, the 'economically inactive' includes all those who have retired early on private pensions. Almost all will be paying at least some IT, unless their total income is under £12570.

These people have decided they have enough income not to work. It would be a bit tough if the state decreed they must work. Presumably, such a rule would also apply to the Duke of Westminster and his ilk. Sounds a tad Marxist to me!

This is the problem with using statistics like 'economically inactive' without a complete understanding of what it includes.
 
Not many posts defending her or the party and its policies is there?

Well, of course there isn’t. It’s a grim moment in grim times. I would have preferred to see higher taxes as a means of raising revenue and I’m not on board with these cuts. For what it’s worth, these self-imposed targets we ‘have to meet’ do more harm than good in the long run.

I have no issue in genuine measures to help people into work etc, but I question whether it’s just an excuse for headlines and to shit on those who are struggling.
 
Well, of course there isn’t. It’s a grim moment in grim times. I would have preferred to see higher taxes as a means of raising revenue and I’m not on board with these cuts. For what it’s worth, these self-imposed targets we ‘have to meet’ do more harm than good in the long run.

I have no issue in genuine measures to help people into work etc, but I question whether it’s just an excuse for headlines and to shit on those who are struggling.

Parking the 'morality' of it all, that's the underlying issue here. It's not going to work, and when it doesn't it'll push yet more people into the arms of populist nutters and we can all see where that leads.
 





Difficult to defend this to be fair.


But how many will be pushed out of poverty by the rest of Labour's plans?

1742999384026.png
And how many of those losing benefits will be helped into jobs? A lot of the savings projected from 'cuts' depend on people not working, moving into work.

It's simplistic to present one side without the other.
 
It's a weird situation when tories decry benefit cuts and attempts to get 'the workshy' off their arses..

There are a huge range of reasons why people can't work, yet could with the right help. Having worked and provided advice to many thousands of people who are on some kind of sickness/disability benefit, being "workshy" is pretty unusual.

Most people want to work.

EDIT: p.s. realised your comment may have been more satire/sarcasm, rather than a dig at 'the workshy'.
 
Ah right, this is a good thing?

And those who are facing the most brutal of cuts will actually be helped into jobs where they will lead a fulfilling life.

All hail Sir Keith!
 

Don't have an account? Register now and see fewer ads!

SIGN UP
Back
Top