The Labour Government

blueinsa said:
For a start, they told us non stop how they would not do what the Tories were doing to everyone.

Change was promised, sadly, it’s not transpired and so far, for millions it’s got worse!
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This current crop has been telling us who they are for years. I don't get how people expected anything different. I said before the election that they would be the same but with a sad face. I was wrong about the sad face.
 
Hertzblue said:
What happened to " He who does not work , shall not eat " Vic ?
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In what way do you interpret that? the biblical quote is very much of its time - its from a tome that advocates stoning people to death yet at the same advocates turning the other cheek. What about people who are able to work but are doing other things like studies that will ultimately benefit mankind but during the period of not working they should not eat? Was van Goch working? He earned nothing whilst alive but is a celebrated artist after death. Most of what the bible teaches is like other religious works that is barely relevant in todays world and is open to interpretation which is when it gets really dangerous.

 
blueinsa said:
For a start, they told us non stop how they would not do what the Tories were doing to everyone.

Change was promised, sadly, it’s not transpired and so far, for millions it’s got worse!
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They’ve been a lot less corrupt to be fair, at least so far!
 
bluethrunthru said:
In what way do you interpret that? the biblical quote is very much of its time - its from a tome that advocates stoning people to death yet at the same advocates turning the other cheek. What about people who are able to work but are doing other things like studies that will ultimately benefit mankind but during the period of not working they should not eat? Was van Goch working? He earned nothing whilst alive but is a celebrated artist after death. Most of what the bible teaches is like other religious works that is barely relevant in todays world and is open to interpretation which is when it gets really dangerous.
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Lol , wtf are you talking about ? You have just googled that one haven't you !
You are very unlikely to be quoted the Bible from me, I should think I would be struck down by a bolt of lightning if I did so.
"He who does not work , neither shall he eat"
My context was a response to Vic's comment about not enough Brits were prepared to work at picking and packing food , work in construction or the NHS.
I thought that was ironic from Vic who I judge from his posts to be one of these forums most prominent Marxists. The irony being these people who will not work versus " he who does not work , neither shall he eat" This is a quote by Lenin from his work The State and Revolution and in his letter to the Workers of Petrograd he describes this as " a basic and root principle of socialism"
A good socialist should know this Blue.
Now, Lenin was I am sure additionally referring to the need for the bourgeoise to also actually work however Stalin also used this quote in the 1930's where that wasn't the case.
In any event the requirement for those that can work to do so is well established in Socialism so there is nothing un - socialist about this Labour government stating that those who can work should be required to do so.
As for the Bible you are correct , it is there to , St Paul I believe . Also attributed to John Smith and his rules for Jamestown the early colony he established in America. Whilst St Paul may well have influenced John Smith he almost certainly didn't influence Lenin or Joe Stalin. But as you have raised it , isn't it interesting that the concept of supporting those who will not work ( as opposed to being unable) has been unacceptable for milennia, yet here we are in Western Europe and North America in the present day doing just that. If that is what you support that is not Socialism that is Welfarism.
Anyway, extra Marxist classes for you I think.
 
Hertzblue said:
Lol , wtf are you talking about ? You have just googled that one haven't you !
You are very unlikely to be quoted the Bible from me, I should think I would be struck down by a bolt of lightning if I did so.
"He who does not work , neither shall he eat"
My context was a response to Vic's comment about not enough Brits were prepared to work at picking and packing food , work in construction or the NHS.
I thought that was ironic from Vic who I judge from his posts to be one of these forums most prominent Marxists. The irony being these people who will not work versus " he who does not work , neither shall he eat" This is a quote by Lenin from his work The State and Revolution and in his letter to the Workers of Petrograd he describes this as " a basic and root principle of socialism"
A good socialist should know this Blue.
Now, Lenin was I am sure additionally referring to the need for the bourgeoise to also actually work however Stalin also used this quote in the 1930's where that wasn't the case.
In any event the requirement for those that can work to do so is well established in Socialism so there is nothing un - socialist about this Labour government stating that those who can work should be required to do so.
As for the Bible you are correct , it is there to , St Paul I believe . Also attributed to John Smith and his rules for Jamestown the early colony he established in America. Whilst St Paul may well have influenced John Smith he almost certainly didn't influence Lenin or Joe Stalin. But as you have raised it , isn't it interesting that the concept of supporting those who will not work ( as opposed to being unable) has been unacceptable for milennia, yet here we are in Western Europe and North America in the present day doing just that. If that is what you support that is not Socialism that is Welfarism.
Anyway, extra Marxist classes for you I think.
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I'm not sure Vic has an ideology in fairness to him unless defending his sides line can be seen as an ideology.
 
hilts said:
I'm not sure Vic has an ideology in fairness to him unless defending his sides line can be seen as an ideology.
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That's closer to reality than calling me a Marxist! Actually, my starting point would be "Do to others as you would have them do to you". Not that I always adhere to that; I'd have to give my season ticket away for every game. But it is a basis for a welfare state. And it does mean I don't always support the party line. At the last constituency Labour party meeting I gave a little speech with loads of quotes as to why cutting overseas aid was bad - all from the debate in Parliament when the Tories cut it from 0.7% of domestic income to 0.5%, and all from Keir Starmer.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Labour has delivered the highest return migration rates for eight years, and the four biggest return flights ever.
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Yet the numbers keep rising and rising and rising……

Cooper just this week is now asking for a crackdown on those working in the black economy as a government report suggests anywhere between 800k and 1.2 Million illegal immigrants are here working in it.
 
blueinsa said:
Yet the numbers keep rising and rising and rising……

Cooper just this week is now asking for a crackdown on those working in the black economy as a government report suggests anywhere between 800k and 1.2 Million illegal immigrants are here working in it.
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They're not shying away from this issue - they're taking tough measures which will take time and working with other nations.
 
Cracking down on the black economy? I've been advocating this for years.

Sadly, I'll believe it when I see it. Too many native Brits enjoy a bit of cash-in-hand and tax dodging. It shouldn't be an option, and if it wasn't, it would boost tax income, reduce benefit fraud and make this country far less attractive to unqualified immigrants.

Of course, we really need ID cards to go with it, but that's probably too much for this paranoid nation. It's easier to whine on the Daily Mail site than actually do something!
 
BrianW said:
Cracking down on the black economy? I've been advocating this for years.

Sadly, I'll believe it when I see it. Too many native Brits enjoy a bit of cash-in-hand and tax dodging. It shouldn't be an option, and if it wasn't, it would boost tax income, reduce benefit fraud and make this country far less attractive to unqualified immigrants.

Of course, we really need ID cards to go with it, but that's probably too much for this paranoid nation. It's easier to whine (about ID Cards) on the Daily Mail Mirror site than actually do something!
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I fail to see the point of your amendment, old chap.

The people who whine most about immigrants and 'scroungers' are overwhelmingly concentrated on the Daily Mail site, far fewer on that of the Daily Mirror.

The exact same people are paranoid about any restriction on cash and the introduction of ID cards!

As I have said before, it's no use willing the ends unless you also will the means. That's just fantasy pipe-dreaming, the equivalent of hoping the Lottery comes up so you can have a new car.
 
BrianW said:
I fail to see the point of your amendment, old chap.

The people who whine most about immigrants and 'scroungers' are overwhelmingly concentrated on the Daily Mail site, far fewer on that of the Daily Mirror.

The exact same people are paranoid about any restriction on cash and the introduction of ID cards!

As I have said before, it's no use willing the ends unless you also will the means. That's just fantasy pipe-dreaming, the equivalent of hoping the Lottery comes up so you can have a new car.
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Fair points about "cash in hand" working, though that is rife across the board.

My point probably badly made is that Daily Mirror readers are far more likely to moan about ID cards (which I'd readily support) than those of the Daily Mail.
 
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