The Same Old Traps

Top Draw Goo , good lad !

Here is a comparison from last season .....

After the debacle in Munich we played Blackburn away ...... all the knives were out from every quarter , i stood (supposed to be seated lol) with my 15 year old lad in the packed Darwin end , 8,000 of us sang our hearts out in support of the manager Mancini ....... fabulous hot day to remember ...... we won 4-0 and never really looked back. Proud proud day !

Amsterdam has gone , lets all now look forward !It is concievable Dortmund could lose or draw in Madrid , draw in Amsterdam or even lose and City win all 3 remaining CL fixtures and qualify ...... last seasons experience says never say never.
 
tolmie's hairdoo said:
Nicely written, articulate, but please credit fellow blues across all sections of our support, with the brains to think for themselves.

Certainly, that it may represent whatever majority.

Opinions are generally formulated well before the media get the chance to kick City when they are down.

They are formed on the field of play, there for all to see, backed up by a set of poor results in a particular competition, which has been the current topic for debate.

I don't consider Bobby a bad manager, but I certainly don't believe him to be a great one, as many seem to have already bracketed him.

I saw them same old arguments from those who could see that Hughes was delaying the inevitable, that he simply wasn't good enough for the next step.

People would cry, but you never get anywhere with sacking managers, he got us to the Carling Cup semi-final, etc.

Well, we certainly got somewhere by sacking him, an upgrade was available which helped our wealth to realise an FA Cup and Premier League title.

It's a little close-minded to suggest that Bobby is the full stop to this great story.

He's simply a chapter, a momentous one, but I think we are far from being a best-seller under his tenure.

He thrives on creative tension, an autocratic style, but even Ferguson has had to accept the realities of the modern game and adapt.

Simply my opinion, nothing more, but from what I have seen so far, there is a very strong likelihood we will end this season with nothing.

The Barcelonisation of our club, behind the scenes, I can't help but feel and even hope this whole 'project' set up for Pep Guardiola to become our manager one day.

I can't help but feel and even hope this whole 'project' set up for Pep Guardiola to become our manager one day.
===========
I sincerely hope not.
 
The fact is in the CL we have played:

Real Madrid
Bayern Munich
Borussia Dortmund
Ajax
Napoli
Villareal

If we played these teams in the Premiership we might have a similar record. Europe is not a big mystery there are just more good teams in the CL.

We were 5 minutes away from 3 points at the Bernabeau. It's not an excuse to say we have had bad draws... its a fact. We have also sometimes played poorly (as we did vs Villa too...is that allowed?)

If it's all an excuse and we wouldn't beat FC Cluj...imagine if we had Barca Bayern and Real Madrid in our group (yes I know it's not possible) but would you expect to sail through? If we didn't would you say European football is too difficult... sack the Manager?

Well our groups haven't been a great deal easier.

I've seen some really poorly thought out posts from posters on here who I previosly respected.

So, in what is hopefully a break from my normal posts, I'm going to respond with:

Tolm: you are wrong wrong wrong.

Didsbury Dave: You're an idiot.
 
Thanks Goo, for articulating what I had in my head and making it clear. Saved me a lot of work-much easier reading what you wrote and thinking 'yep, spot on!'.
 
tolmie's hairdoo said:
Nicely written, articulate, but please credit fellow blues across all sections of our support, with the brains to think for themselves.

Certainly, that it may represent whatever majority.

Opinions are generally formulated well before the media get the chance to kick City when they are down.

They are formed on the field of play, there for all to see, backed up by a set of poor results in a particular competition, which has been the current topic for debate.

I don't consider Bobby a bad manager, but I certainly don't believe him to be a great one, as many seem to have already bracketed him.

I saw them same old arguments from those who could see that Hughes was delaying the inevitable, that he simply wasn't good enough for the next step.

People would cry, but you never get anywhere with sacking managers, he got us to the Carling Cup semi-final, etc.

Well, we certainly got somewhere by sacking him, an upgrade was available which helped our wealth to realise an FA Cup and Premier League title.

It's a little close-minded to suggest that Bobby is the full stop to this great story.

He's simply a chapter, a momentous one, but I think we are far from being a best-seller under his tenure.

He thrives on creative tension, an autocratic style, but even Ferguson has had to accept the realities of the modern game and adapt.

Simply my opinion, nothing more, but from what I have seen so far, there is a very strong likelihood we will end this season with nothing.

The Barcelonisation of our club, behind the scenes, I can't help but feel and even hope this whole 'project' set up for Pep Guardiola to become our manager one day.

Not if Chelsea manage to get there hands on him.........

Regardless of how well Di Matteo's doing at the moment there's plenty behind the scenes that still see Pep as the future for the club.
 
Goo said:
I have been avoiding this board since the Ajax loss, but since returning I am not surprised one bit to see us falling into the same old traps that we always do after a loss. The media cracks the 'blame game' whip and we all march in line. It really is astonishing for a group of fans to be so conscious of the way the media works one day, and the next day to then lead the line of dissent conducted by the tabloid press.

The Mancini outer's have been out en masse since the final whistle in Amsterdam and it felt like the posts were already written in anticipation.

European football isn't something that the bank balance can govern. That just helps you on your way. The time necessary to bring a club from regular entrants to the Champions League, to regular knock out places is vast. I'm sure a few statistical boffins could come up with a few outliers, but the fact remains that throughout history, English clubs have taken a very long time to come to terms with the rigors of European football. We have a manger who has won us the FA Cup and the league title in the last two years. Remind me how long it took Ferguson to win anything at Old Trafford? Well it was 6 years. It also took him a fair chunk of time to be able to show any convincing upward trajectory in Europe. Wenger can also be used for historical reference. One of the best managers in the premier league era and still not one the Champions League. That says far more about the Champions League than Arsene Wenger, that's for sure. Finally, the last yard stick I'll use is Chelsea. The never ending changing of managers, high player turnover, and like us, millions of pounds pumped into winning the competition and they needed all the luck in the world to finally clinch it almost a decade after his project began. 6th in the league, yet champions of Europe.

Why can't that be us? Well it would start if we were seeding in pot 1. In our maiden season in the champions league we were seeded to fail. I know that imbalance of fairness can be broken from time to time, but it's still worth noting it's existence. This season we've been in pot two yet had a group that makes us look like pot 3 once again. Dortmund, Read, and Ajax are our current group and we're expected to do just as well as a team handed Cluj, Galatasaray, and Braga. Just because we don't hear Dortmund's name when the biggest clubs in Europe are mentioned (AC, Inter, Barca, Real, Bayern, etc) doesn't mean they're mugs for the taking. Last night when we were all sulking over a defeat, Dortmund were celebrating beating Real Madrid. That's a big deal when you consider Real's players, manager, and Champions League experience. Ajax nearly held the same team to a draw in Amsterdam. We're not playing poor teams by any stretch of the imagination. I firmly believe that you need three things to do well in the Champions League; Top quality players/Top quality manager/Top quality experience of playing together. We have the first two. The third is in the process of being secured.

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it, but the slow dripping of media-conjured doubt over his job makes everyone shake like a shitting dog with fear that he might not be the man. The only managers who have won the Champions League in such a short time are managers who have inherited the first and final necessities I mentioned above, and have themselves been the second requirement. Mancini is the second, but inherited none of the others. There is an argument he initially had some quality players, but mostly not CL quality. Now we have the players, the manager, and we're just waiting on that elusive experience. We need time to develop as a team, as players, and as a club. With that in mind we should all be saying "Fuck it, I can see the bigger picture here"

I've also noticed that even the new signings are getting it in the neck. Hardly any of them have even featured yet. Again if we look at the history we know it takes some players (if not most players) months to get into the rhythm of their new team, why should this lot be any different? I distinctly remember the resident flappers wishing we'd signed Van Der Vaart instead of Silva during his early days. Looking back that is sheer lunacy, and he's arguable our best player, not to mention one of the best attacking midfielders in the world! Same happened with Yaya when he first signed. Now he's widely regarded as the best midfielder in the league, and rightly so. Why should we expect Garcia to fire on all cylinders after one or two games? Sure that'd be lovely, but it's not realistic. Nastasic looks quality and young, just what we wanted instead of Savic. Sinclair is an as-good-as-version of Johnson, who is younger and seems very willing to learn. Again, exactly what we wanted from a young squad player. Maicon has vast experience, could make our first XI while also provides cover allowing Micah to move to centre back when needed, and hopefully will have a 'Vieira' effect on the younger players. Again, ticking important boxes. Finally Rodwell. A young promising player who with any luck will take over from Barry when he either moves on or hangs his boots. Last summer when he was rumored to join United, people were hailing him as the new Scholes. Be that prediction true or not, it just goes to show that he's rated very highly. Give the guys a chance. These transfers are not "baffling" or hard to understand in the slightest. They fulfill necessary roles in our team.

This club we all love is forever showing evidence that we're heading in the right direction since Mancini took over. Just because we hit a few stumbling blocks (namely in Europe) along the way is no reason to assume he's tactically inept! Short term evaluation is definitely the wrong way to go about assessing ones managerial credentials. That's been proven to us time and time again.

"There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know." - Harry S. Truman


DISCLAIMER: Before anyone decides to bite my head off, this is all my opinion of course, as always :)


can't be arsed reading all of this, can you post a summary?
 
york away to this! said:
Goo said:
I have been avoiding this board since the Ajax loss, but since returning I am not surprised one bit to see us falling into the same old traps that we always do after a loss. The media cracks the 'blame game' whip and we all march in line. It really is astonishing for a group of fans to be so conscious of the way the media works one day, and the next day to then lead the line of dissent conducted by the tabloid press.

The Mancini outer's have been out en masse since the final whistle in Amsterdam and it felt like the posts were already written in anticipation.

European football isn't something that the bank balance can govern. That just helps you on your way. The time necessary to bring a club from regular entrants to the Champions League, to regular knock out places is vast. I'm sure a few statistical boffins could come up with a few outliers, but the fact remains that throughout history, English clubs have taken a very long time to come to terms with the rigors of European football. We have a manger who has won us the FA Cup and the league title in the last two years. Remind me how long it took Ferguson to win anything at Old Trafford? Well it was 6 years. It also took him a fair chunk of time to be able to show any convincing upward trajectory in Europe. Wenger can also be used for historical reference. One of the best managers in the premier league era and still not one the Champions League. That says far more about the Champions League than Arsene Wenger, that's for sure. Finally, the last yard stick I'll use is Chelsea. The never ending changing of managers, high player turnover, and like us, millions of pounds pumped into winning the competition and they needed all the luck in the world to finally clinch it almost a decade after his project began. 6th in the league, yet champions of Europe.

Why can't that be us? Well it would start if we were seeding in pot 1. In our maiden season in the champions league we were seeded to fail. I know that imbalance of fairness can be broken from time to time, but it's still worth noting it's existence. This season we've been in pot two yet had a group that makes us look like pot 3 once again. Dortmund, Read, and Ajax are our current group and we're expected to do just as well as a team handed Cluj, Galatasaray, and Braga. Just because we don't hear Dortmund's name when the biggest clubs in Europe are mentioned (AC, Inter, Barca, Real, Bayern, etc) doesn't mean they're mugs for the taking. Last night when we were all sulking over a defeat, Dortmund were celebrating beating Real Madrid. That's a big deal when you consider Real's players, manager, and Champions League experience. Ajax nearly held the same team to a draw in Amsterdam. We're not playing poor teams by any stretch of the imagination. I firmly believe that you need three things to do well in the Champions League; Top quality players/Top quality manager/Top quality experience of playing together. We have the first two. The third is in the process of being secured.

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it, but the slow dripping of media-conjured doubt over his job makes everyone shake like a shitting dog with fear that he might not be the man. The only managers who have won the Champions League in such a short time are managers who have inherited the first and final necessities I mentioned above, and have themselves been the second requirement. Mancini is the second, but inherited none of the others. There is an argument he initially had some quality players, but mostly not CL quality. Now we have the players, the manager, and we're just waiting on that elusive experience. We need time to develop as a team, as players, and as a club. With that in mind we should all be saying "Fuck it, I can see the bigger picture here"

I've also noticed that even the new signings are getting it in the neck. Hardly any of them have even featured yet. Again if we look at the history we know it takes some players (if not most players) months to get into the rhythm of their new team, why should this lot be any different? I distinctly remember the resident flappers wishing we'd signed Van Der Vaart instead of Silva during his early days. Looking back that is sheer lunacy, and he's arguable our best player, not to mention one of the best attacking midfielders in the world! Same happened with Yaya when he first signed. Now he's widely regarded as the best midfielder in the league, and rightly so. Why should we expect Garcia to fire on all cylinders after one or two games? Sure that'd be lovely, but it's not realistic. Nastasic looks quality and young, just what we wanted instead of Savic. Sinclair is an as-good-as-version of Johnson, who is younger and seems very willing to learn. Again, exactly what we wanted from a young squad player. Maicon has vast experience, could make our first XI while also provides cover allowing Micah to move to centre back when needed, and hopefully will have a 'Vieira' effect on the younger players. Again, ticking important boxes. Finally Rodwell. A young promising player who with any luck will take over from Barry when he either moves on or hangs his boots. Last summer when he was rumored to join United, people were hailing him as the new Scholes. Be that prediction true or not, it just goes to show that he's rated very highly. Give the guys a chance. These transfers are not "baffling" or hard to understand in the slightest. They fulfill necessary roles in our team.

This club we all love is forever showing evidence that we're heading in the right direction since Mancini took over. Just because we hit a few stumbling blocks (namely in Europe) along the way is no reason to assume he's tactically inept! Short term evaluation is definitely the wrong way to go about assessing ones managerial credentials. That's been proven to us time and time again.

"There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know." - Harry S. Truman


DISCLAIMER: Before anyone decides to bite my head off, this is all my opinion of course, as always :)


can't be arsed reading all of this, can you post a summary?

Your loss

Great post Goo
 
Didsbury Dave said:
Cobwebcat said:
Didsbury Dave: You're an idiot.

Not the best structured or most reasonable response to my post to be honest.

Why do I get all the einsteins on my case?


You know why? Because today Dave you really deseve it.

This is what counts:

http://clubelo.com/ManCity/

and its based on all results. Focusing in on Europe makes as much sense as focusing in on London.

Any criticism of Mancini that starts with "In Europe" is nonsense and they are all over this board.

Tell me this: Why does it matter where a team comes from?

There is no meaningful "European record" You might as well isolate Mancini's record against Merseyside teams as an example of something.

There is only one record that counts and that is Mancini's overall record against ALL teams including Chelsea, Liverpool, Ajax....wherever.

The destination means fuck all. There are good teams and bad teams all over the World unless we are saying a victory against Malmo counts more than 1-6 at the swamp?

Your looking at a subset of results based on location to prove a non-existant point.

Mightly pissed off today with some blues who have used a subset of results to support getting rid of Mancini.


And as for your theory that Mancini isn't great because he has had a lot to spend I read elsewhere:

http://transferpriceindex.com/2012/...all-time-best-managers-versus-the-mxir-model/

They are the facts. You are still an idiot (at least today)

Happy now?
 

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