The Scottish Politics thread

[Alan Harper's Tash]

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Being Irish, maybe I’m educated differently in these matters. I’m certainly taught history differently and see the same things happening over and over through time on these islands without seemingly, lessons being learnt.

A question;
What exactly is a union if the individual members or constituents countries cannot opt out of it when they so choose.

I won’t drag Irish history into a Scottish thread, I’ve done enough of that in the Irish politics thread, but have recently given up as I am totally dismayed by current UK political relations.

 

[Rascal]

A question;
What exactly is a union if the individual members or constituents countries cannot opt out of it when they so choose.

The hypocrisy of allowing a Brexit referendum and denying a Scottish referendum is breathtaking.

In effect the UK had many things that the pro leave mob railed against, most importantly Free Movement.

 

[Saddleworth2]

The agenda, as you describe it, does not belong to Sturgeon in much the same way as it didn't belong to Salmond or Wilson, or any SNP leader since the 1930s. She is just the current voice of what is now a large body of the Scottish population. In Sturgeon's defense, she's actually one of the more careful public speakers and generally talks about Westminster, Conservatives, and the UK, not England.

The two nations are drifting apart again, unsurprisingly since they've politically been longer apart than ever together, and the closer they come to separating there will inevitably be isolated unpleasantness, on both sides.

It is a common mistake that some make that the SNP = Independence. They don’t. As you say, they simply represent the aspirations of a large % of the Scottish populace.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Being Irish, maybe I’m educated differently in these matters. I’m certainly taught history differently and see the same things happening over and over through time on these islands without seemingly, lessons being learnt.

A question;
What exactly is a union if the individual members or constituents countries cannot opt out of it when they so choose.

I won’t drag Irish history into a Scottish thread, I’ve done enough of that in the Irish politics thread, but have recently given up as I am totally dismayed by current UK political relations.

we will one way or other have a second referendum with or without permission of a party this nation long rejected.
i suspect that if we are brave and determined enough to say yes to independence, despite how difficult that road might be, we will see movement in Ireland as well.

 

[Ballymagash Blue]

we will one way or other have a second referendum with or without permission of a party this nation long rejected.
i suspect that if we are brave and determined enough to say yes to independence, despite how difficult that road might be, we will see movement in Ireland as well.

There is nothing even remotely approaching consensus on the Irish border. The only option on the table is the current constitutional arrangement, and any movement towards anything else is incredibly dangerous for both north & south.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

we will one way or other have a second referendum with or without permission of a party this nation long rejected.
i suspect that if we are brave and determined enough to say yes to independence, despite how difficult that road might be, we will see movement in Ireland as well.

I wouldn’t be so sure @Saddleworth2
Whatever people north and south think of the GFA, it is perhaps ironically for those that opposed it so much (DUP), seemingly the only true safeguard of their rights. If they are depending on the Tory Party they will eventually be let down.
However, Scotland biting the bullet may well be the catalyst for…. God knows what!

 

[Gabriel]

we will one way or other have a second referendum with or without permission of a party this nation long rejected.
i suspect that if we are brave and determined enough to say yes to independence, despite how difficult that road might be, we will see movement in Ireland as well.

I always look at the historical dimension and sense that the Union has long since served its purpose for the Scots, and there is a sense of inevitability now. The Scots went into it bankrupt and profited enormously from English trade and its overseas territories and then even more so by helping exploit the Empire, but now there is no great future for the United Kingdom as either a political or economic entity. It thus makes sense for the Scots to leave that Union and ‘rejoin’ the European Union, as it will inevitably be economically more powerful and militarily more protective in the coming centuries. England will feel understandably jilted by this decision and be increasingly wary of its continental neighbours, but that just returns us to the early eighteenth century and why England favoured the Union.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I wouldn’t be so sure @Saddleworth2
Whatever people north and south think of the GFA, it is perhaps ironically for those that opposed it so much (DUP), seemingly the only true safeguard of their rights. If they are depending on the Tory Party they will eventually be let down.
However, Scotland biting the bullet may well be the catalyst for…. God knows what!

I'm not sure it was clear enough what I meant. I think if Scottish independence goes ahead that there is greater likelyhood of a united Ireland with Scotland and Ireland part of the EU. Without Scotland there is no such thing as a United Kingdom and I genuinely cannot foresee why the good people of NI would think that the status quo is best for them.
My only reference to the GFA was in relation to the risks that the tories are trying to take with the Northern Ireland protocol bill. Not for here but worth a discussion over on the Irish politics thread.

 

[Saddleworth2]

There is nothing even remotely approaching consensus on the Irish border. The only option on the table is the current constitutional arrangement, and any movement towards anything else is incredibly dangerous for both north & south.

see my response to eamo mate. I don't think I was clear enough.