This transfer window/Marwood

[supercrystal7]

Would you care to expand on this point?

Yes I backed City to win the league last year on the strength of your first team, but this year United have closed the gap between first teams and their squad is still better.

Just comparing keepers; Hart is better than De Gae at the moment, but De Gae is improving rapidly and I don't think he will be far off Hart's level by January. As for second choice both Pantimilon and Lindergaard seem pretty good to me. Pantimilon not played much, but looks more than good enough for a second choice.

Left backs-you have the advantage. Clichy is better than Evra now and I know nothing about this dutch bloke. So would assume Kolorov is better. The Dutch bloke should need time to settle in anyway.

Centre backs-Now this is where there is a real difference. Kompany is the best outright centre back out of the bunch. Vidic once he gets going will not be far off his level. Ferdinand still better than Lescott though. Then both Smalling and Evans are better than Toure and Savic. Jones is not bad extra cover there. The thing is the United group of Evans, Smalling and Jones are young and will probably improve through even the course of this season.

Right backs-you have the advantage. Richards is the best out of the bunch. Zabaleta the 2nd, but once again the United players are young and improving rapdily. Rafael is impetuous, but still fairly good and improving.

Wingers/Wide playmakers-Another big advantage to United. First team wise you have the edge with Silva and Nasri. Seen a lot of Kagawa and he is very good. So Silva and Nasri better than Kagawa and Nani. Problem is Valencia and Young, much better than Milner and Kolorov. Like with the centre backs their is big gap between the quality of the reserves and the first team.

Central Midfield-Yaya is a class apart. Easily best central midfielder in the country. United have no one near as good. Carrick though is probably the next best out of the bunch. Barry is not far off that level. De Jong a bit overrated on this forum. He is not really any better than Fletcher. Cleverly better than Rodwell, but I think Rodwell has more potential and will turn out to be the better player. In addition United have Scholes, Giggs and Anderson to cover the midfield. You have no one else.

Strikers-This is by far the strongest area of your squad. No team in the world has the quality you have. That said RVP for me is the best of the bunch. Though would argue Aguero and Tevez both better than Rooney. Dzeko and Balotelli both better than Welbeck or Hernandez too.

Comparing player for player, though does not take into account how dependent your style of football is on certain players. Ferguson has the advantage that EVERY player at the club was his choice and plays the way he wants. Yes United are going through a transitional period on how to play, but you can take out any one player without weakening the team too much.

An example. Lets say you are playing a top team, How would you feel if Kompany was out injured? Do you think United would miss Vidic as much? Or how about Yaya out? Would United miss Carrick as badly? How about taking Silva out of the team? Would United miss Nani as badly? Even upfront where you have better players, if you took out RVP, United would miss him only slightly more than you would Aguero. In fact it's only at full back where an injury blow/suspension to a star player effects United considerably more than you. Hence why there is cause for concern.

But we all know, football doesn't quite work that way.

You could argue that United have clearly enhanced the squad with RvP, but at the same time, Scholes is another year older, as is Giggs, and there's no obvious and equal replacement for them still. Stronger upfront, weaker in midfield, and defensively, it's questionable if Ferdinand and Vidic are ever going to be the powerhouse they once were.
You could argue that United's fighting spirit will be as strong as ever and their wounded animal attitude will come to the fore to reclaim the title. Equally, it could be argued that the perceived decline of last year might actually start to show properly this year, having fought bravely to the bitter end last season.

At City, there's no clear improvement in the squad at all, but no obvious weakening either. There's arguably and increased self belief in the team and the fans - which already has salvaged points for them. Plus, there's a more coherent understanding between players who are now enjoying their second or third season together.
Equally, City now face the threats of complacency and a fervour to claim their scalp at EVERY single game. Teams raised their game against City last season, there's even more cause for them to do so now we're champions.

All in all, I'd say both teams remain neck and neck... it's Chelsea that have strengthened / changed the most... and remain the wildcard. They are an unknown quantity right now, and that could prove to be dangerous for United and City.

With respect to Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle and Everton - all are capable of fantastic performances and pose a danger to the City, United and Chelsea, but across the course of a season, it's very difficult to see them compete.
Arsenal of course have the most pedigree in the last 20 years, and there's no reason to suspect their current weaknesses will be so damning as to cause them serious difficulties. They'll come good as they always do... just unlikely to be good enough.
Liverpool too are much like Arsenal, but coming from a position of weakness and believing they have a renewed strength... it will be interesting to see them over the course.

Of course and that is the beauty of the game. Just last year alone we had Aguero scoring in the last minute to win the league. Chelsea winning the league, Pirlo rejuvenating himself and taking Juve to the title.

I would agree with your assessment of Tottenha, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle and Everton. They are all tough places to go especially away. If I am honest I think the whole league was a bit lower in quality last year than it has been for a while. This hurt you when competing against United since there lack of quality meant they would've struggled more in a strong league than you wouldve. Anyway this year Everton look strong from the start, Chelsea much stronger, Liverpool much stronger, Newcastle just as good and Sunderland will be a decent. Tottenham probably weaker.

I would say your point about Vidic is a valid one. However, he is still only 30 and would think he would get back to his best. Smalling and Jones are good prospects. Evans whilst I don't see him being a world beat is decent back up. You also did not take into account Kagawa's influence. He really is a very good player. I would say at a similar level to Nasri. Also he is used to winning. Giggs and Scholes older, but Giggs really did not do much after January. The United lack of quality in midfield is their big weakness. Think it's better that they bough RVP than Modric since the weakness remains.

On Chelsea they look very good for the future, but though I am a big fan of Lampard, his time has past at Chelsea. Hard to judge if Terry is playing rubbish, because of the FA charge or he is just past it, but he is a liability at the back. I often use Chelsea as a model of how to buy players and how not to. This time Roman has learnt from his mistakes and built an incredibly strong young squad with no holes. Think this season too early for them.

Ultimately last year you were very unlucky in the cups. You should go much further in the FA Cup. The CL draw was one of the hardest you could have got. Villareal being terrible actually meant the group was harder. Bayern and Napoli were playing brilliant at the start. Napoli were unbeatable at home for the first half of the season. So your squad will be tested even further.

Like I said football is so unpredictable. If you bring no one else, but won the FA cup and got to the quarters would say it was a decent season. However, I fear the fans and management won't.

 

[AustinBlue]

Excellent post and a great insight for the "Why haven't we signed...." & "Garry Cook was a tosser" brigades.

If it's true that Mancini signed all those players against advice then it's no wonder we were talking to Mourinho before we offered RM a new contract.

You said it PB, if its true. Personaly, I don't think it is. Mario, AK and Savic I would agree, Edin no. Pants and Hargreaves cost zlitch, so Austin is clutching at straws on that. Marwood has no track record in the area he occupies, aside from worming his way onto,or into the PFA. He was appointed by the last CEO, who like the manager wasn't our owners choice and with zero track record in running a club with global ambitions. Yet we are to believe that a manager, who has won more major trophies than either fungus, or arse had at the same age, in two of the top 3 leagues in the world is the problem? Utter *ollocks. No manager gets it right every time, but he has taken players he had, De Jong, Vinnie, Micah, Zabs, Lescott and Hart and improved them, in some cases out of all recognition to the same players, when under the previous manager. The previous manager, was allowed to sign not just one, but two players who failed, part of their medicals, sign several players on massive contracts, way out of line with their actual quality. Mancini, has taken Yaya, from defensive lynch pin, to being the stuff of mightmares for the rest of the league. Aside from Edin and AK, Savic isn't horrendously expensive, or over paid, infact few players at City are paid more than Ade and AK less than Bridge! He has steared us towards 3 trophies in 3 years and is hoping to gain more this season, let alone in the forthcoming years. Aside from his managerial career, (which BM never had), as a player, he has truly scaled the heights. The shit happened on the previous shift and the connection was BM, who WILL be gone by the start of next season.

I'm not sure Mancini as 'the problem' is quite an accurate portrayal of his argument.

I think he's explaining that there's a natural (and correct) difference in rationale between the manager and the purse holder. Mancini cannot, and should not just have 'free reign' to spend as he sees fit. I don't think Fergie has THAT much reign.
Of course, he should have an opinion and a good say in the matter, but there (and should be) financial constraints that all managers have to comprehend and work within the parameters of.

Now, that's not saying City don't have 50million (say) to spend... but it NEEDS someone to remind the manager that if he spends that 50 million now, what happens in January when (say) Cavani becomes available, or if Tevez pulls another stunt? buying now because there's a hole burning in his pocket might be unwise.

All in all, the manager needs a counter - someone to challenge his buys, and if necessary pull the plug.

That's certainly no criticism of Mancini or his choices... it's just the natural order of things.

I think of it like a woman... All in all, she's the right person to decorate the house. She'll do a good job. Much better then we could. But, you don't give her your credit card... you monitor her spending and you 'police' her buys... so she's not paying 40 quid for some posh wallpaper when you can get similar one for 20 quid.
Of course she'll complain, but once the decorating is done, she forgets all about it, and still congratulates herself on how well she's done... while you save a small fortune in the process.

Exactly. I'm not saying Mancini is the problem. I think Mancini is a good manager and I support him. I'm saying that City was "functional" before because we had an active CEO in the mix. And that Marwood has done an effective job in the role he was meant to play - asset management. I know what I know, but I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. Those that know me in real life on this board know that I'm not a bullshitter.

 

[Anonymous]

Ferdinand better than lescott? Lol fuck off.

And we dont play with wingers like ushited do.

If you look at keeper, defence, midfield, attack the only aspect they are level with us is attack and i still think we edge that.

The only reason they kept up last season was ferguson and his winning mentality hes installed. Mancini will get the same ethos over time but it takes years to do.

All that being said its a toss up between us, the trafford turd and chelsea this year imo with spurs the outsiders.

 

[Citizen in Pakistan]

Marwood is so good that the clubs like Swansea are holding us for ransom now?i agree with Swansea boss to some extent,we were being linked with Sinclair throughout the summer and every rumor we heard said it,s a done deal and still we find out its not done yet in the last week of the window,its not like we wont buy players now in the remaining days we hopefully will but we,ll just get ripped of for every deal we,ll do most probably.

 

[AustinBlue]

Marwood is so good that the clubs like Swansea are holding us for ransom now?i agree with Swansea boss to some extent,we were being linked with Sinclair throughout the summer and every rumor we heard said it,s a done deal and still we find out its not done yet in the last week of the window,its not like we wont buy players now in the remaining days we hopefully will but we,ll just get ripped of for every deal we,ll do most probably.

When you are negotiating, you have a price you are willing to pay. If they other side wants more than that amount, you either decide to pay more or walk away. They did away with magic wands after the last Harry Potter book.

 

[supercrystal7]

Marwood is so good that the clubs like Swansea are holding us for ransom now?i agree with Swansea boss to some extent,we were being linked with Sinclair throughout the summer and every rumor we heard said it,s a done deal and still we find out its not done yet in the last week of the window,its not like we wont buy players now in the remaining days we hopefully will but we,ll just get ripped of for every deal we,ll do most probably.

When you are negotiating, you have a price you are willing to pay. If they other side wants more than that amount, you either decide to pay more or walk away. They did away with magic wands after the last Harry Potter book.

This is why it is vital to be able to assess correctly how important the good you wish to purchase is for the company.

 

[moomba]

Marwood is so good that the clubs like Swansea are holding us for ransom now?i agree with Swansea boss to some extent,we were being linked with Sinclair throughout the summer and every rumor we heard said it,s a done deal and still we find out its not done yet in the last week of the window,its not like we wont buy players now in the remaining days we hopefully will but we,ll just get ripped of for every deal we,ll do most probably.

When you are negotiating, you have a price you are willing to pay. If they other side wants more than that amount, you either decide to pay more or walk away. They did away with magic wands after the last Harry Potter book.

You clearly misunderstand. Marwood should be able to force clubs to sell at a time and price to fit in with our buying policy, and force other cubs to buy at a time and price to fit in with our selling policy.

After all these clubs are working hard to get the best deal for Man City aren't they?

 

[taconinja]

Marwood is so good that the clubs like Swansea are holding us for ransom now?i agree with Swansea boss to some extent,we were being linked with Sinclair throughout the summer and every rumor we heard said it,s a done deal and still we find out its not done yet in the last week of the window,its not like we wont buy players now in the remaining days we hopefully will but we,ll just get ripped of for every deal we,ll do most probably.

When you are negotiating, you have a price you are willing to pay. If they other side wants more than that amount, you either decide to pay more or walk away. They did away with magic wands after the last Harry Potter book.

That's a simplification if we're being honest. A good or great negotiator gets around that. You don't just throw a number out there and say "Take it or leave it!"

 

[Citizen in Pakistan]

Marwood is so good that the clubs like Swansea are holding us for ransom now?i agree with Swansea boss to some extent,we were being linked with Sinclair throughout the summer and every rumor we heard said it,s a done deal and still we find out its not done yet in the last week of the window,its not like we wont buy players now in the remaining days we hopefully will but we,ll just get ripped of for every deal we,ll do most probably.

When you are negotiating, you have a price you are willing to pay. If they other side wants more than that amount, you either decide to pay more or walk away. They did away with magic wands after the last Harry Potter book.

That's a simplification if we're being honest. A good or great negotiator gets around that. You don't just throw a number out there and say "Take it or leave it!"

You guys are right to some extent but should it take that long for a good negotiator to assess whether the deal or the price is worth it not? lets say if the price did not suited us,we should have presented our final offer and moved on a week ago to the next target may be.Now were in the final week and Swansea know were out of winger so they could dictate terms now in this deal.Arsenal may not be in a position to do so but they will surely try to squeeze as much as they can if Walcott comes to city .

 

[Bluesiam]

Yes I backed City to win the league last year on the strength of your first team, but this year United have closed the gap between first teams and their squad is still better.

Just comparing keepers; Hart is better than De Gae at the moment, but De Gae is improving rapidly and I don't think he will be far off Hart's level by January. As for second choice both Pantimilon and Lindergaard seem pretty good to me. Pantimilon not played much, but looks more than good enough for a second choice.

Left backs-you have the advantage. Clichy is better than Evra now and I know nothing about this dutch bloke. So would assume Kolorov is better. The Dutch bloke should need time to settle in anyway.

Centre backs-Now this is where there is a real difference. Kompany is the best outright centre back out of the bunch. Vidic once he gets going will not be far off his level. Ferdinand still better than Lescott though. Then both Smalling and Evans are better than Toure and Savic. Jones is not bad extra cover there. The thing is the United group of Evans, Smalling and Jones are young and will probably improve through even the course of this season.

Right backs-you have the advantage. Richards is the best out of the bunch. Zabaleta the 2nd, but once again the United players are young and improving rapdily. Rafael is impetuous, but still fairly good and improving.

Wingers/Wide playmakers-Another big advantage to United. First team wise you have the edge with Silva and Nasri. Seen a lot of Kagawa and he is very good. So Silva and Nasri better than Kagawa and Nani. Problem is Valencia and Young, much better than Milner and Kolorov. Like with the centre backs their is big gap between the quality of the reserves and the first team.

Central Midfield-Yaya is a class apart. Easily best central midfielder in the country. United have no one near as good. Carrick though is probably the next best out of the bunch. Barry is not far off that level. De Jong a bit overrated on this forum. He is not really any better than Fletcher. Cleverly better than Rodwell, but I think Rodwell has more potential and will turn out to be the better player. In addition United have Scholes, Giggs and Anderson to cover the midfield. You have no one else.

Strikers-This is by far the strongest area of your squad. No team in the world has the quality you have. That said RVP for me is the best of the bunch. Though would argue Aguero and Tevez both better than Rooney. Dzeko and Balotelli both better than Welbeck or Hernandez too.

Comparing player for player, though does not take into account how dependent your style of football is on certain players. Ferguson has the advantage that EVERY player at the club was his choice and plays the way he wants. Yes United are going through a transitional period on how to play, but you can take out any one player without weakening the team too much.

An example. Lets say you are playing a top team, How would you feel if Kompany was out injured? Do you think United would miss Vidic as much? Or how about Yaya out? Would United miss Carrick as badly? How about taking Silva out of the team? Would United miss Nani as badly? Even upfront where you have better players, if you took out RVP, United would miss him only slightly more than you would Aguero. In fact it's only at full back where an injury blow/suspension to a star player effects United considerably more than you. Hence why there is cause for concern.

But we all know, football doesn't quite work that way.

You could argue that United have clearly enhanced the squad with RvP, but at the same time, Scholes is another year older, as is Giggs, and there's no obvious and equal replacement for them still. Stronger upfront, weaker in midfield, and defensively, it's questionable if Ferdinand and Vidic are ever going to be the powerhouse they once were.
You could argue that United's fighting spirit will be as strong as ever and their wounded animal attitude will come to the fore to reclaim the title. Equally, it could be argued that the perceived decline of last year might actually start to show properly this year, having fought bravely to the bitter end last season.

At City, there's no clear improvement in the squad at all, but no obvious weakening either. There's arguably and increased self belief in the team and the fans - which already has salvaged points for them. Plus, there's a more coherent understanding between players who are now enjoying their second or third season together.
Equally, City now face the threats of complacency and a fervour to claim their scalp at EVERY single game. Teams raised their game against City last season, there's even more cause for them to do so now we're champions.

All in all, I'd say both teams remain neck and neck... it's Chelsea that have strengthened / changed the most... and remain the wildcard. They are an unknown quantity right now, and that could prove to be dangerous for United and City.

With respect to Spurs, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle and Everton - all are capable of fantastic performances and pose a danger to the City, United and Chelsea, but across the course of a season, it's very difficult to see them compete.
Arsenal of course have the most pedigree in the last 20 years, and there's no reason to suspect their current weaknesses will be so damning as to cause them serious difficulties. They'll come good as they always do... just unlikely to be good enough.
Liverpool too are much like Arsenal, but coming from a position of weakness and believing they have a renewed strength... it will be interesting to see them over the course.

Of course and that is the beauty of the game. Just last year alone we had Aguero scoring in the last minute to win the league. Chelsea winning the league, Pirlo rejuvenating himself and taking Juve to the title.

I would agree with your assessment of Tottenha, Arsenal, Liverpool, Newcastle and Everton. They are all tough places to go especially away. If I am honest I think the whole league was a bit lower in quality last year than it has been for a while. This hurt you when competing against United since there lack of quality meant they would've struggled more in a strong league than you wouldve. Anyway this year Everton look strong from the start, Chelsea much stronger, Liverpool much stronger, Newcastle just as good and Sunderland will be a decent. Tottenham probably weaker.

I would say your point about Vidic is a valid one. However, he is still only 30 and would think he would get back to his best. Smalling and Jones are good prospects. Evans whilst I don't see him being a world beat is decent back up. You also did not take into account Kagawa's influence. He really is a very good player. I would say at a similar level to Nasri. Also he is used to winning. Giggs and Scholes older, but Giggs really did not do much after January. The United lack of quality in midfield is their big weakness. Think it's better that they bough RVP than Modric since the weakness remains.

On Chelsea they look very good for the future, but though I am a big fan of Lampard, his time has past at Chelsea. Hard to judge if Terry is playing rubbish, because of the FA charge or he is just past it, but he is a liability at the back. I often use Chelsea as a model of how to buy players and how not to. This time Roman has learnt from his mistakes and built an incredibly strong young squad with no holes. Think this season too early for them.

Ultimately last year you were very unlucky in the cups. You should go much further in the FA Cup. The CL draw was one of the hardest you could have got. Villareal being terrible actually meant the group was harder. Bayern and Napoli were playing brilliant at the start. Napoli were unbeatable at home for the first half of the season. So your squad will be tested even further.

Like I said football is so unpredictable. If you bring no one else, but won the FA cup and got to the quarters would say it was a decent season. However, I fear the fans and management won't.

I really enjoyed reading this debate. One of the most balanced assessments of where City, United et al are right now.

From my end, I think our success in the League will heavily depend on how well we do in Europe. If we have a strong CL run and stay in the FA Cup to late stages (The Carling Cup to a much lesser extent as we will definately field weak fringe players in this competition) it will undoubtedly affect our League strength. United ARE stronger in depth, but we are stronger in my view in most positions in the 1st team. Mario will prove a liability again so we will struggle if we lose another striker for any length of time. Injuries are totally unpredictable as the Rooney case shows. Utd are now in a fragile position and an injury to RVP will really hurt them.

Bottom line: the signings we make betweeen now and Friday will make or break our season assuming we consider a long CL run a mandatory part of a successful season.