SebastianBlue said:Mattyc55 said:SebastianBlue said:You are not arguing against my point, though. I said they would be an average side (ie, top ten, maybe top six if they overacheived). Take Van Persie out of the squad and how many points would they have this season? Take Rooney out last year and how close would they have been to us? I am an economist so I know those questions are very simplistic and don't factor all sorts of variable dependent and independent on their inclusion/exclusive but my overall pint is the probability of their success goes down significantly based on their current level of influence. You cannot make the same argument of the exclusion of De Gea, Giggs, Evra, Vidic, Hernandez, or perhaps even Rooney (this season). That is the definition of a squad carried primarily by one player. I never said Ferguson didn't know what he was doing; in fact he very much does. That is the unfortunate situation we have to deal with: a manager that can win things with an ok squad and a marquee player.
If Van Persie wasn't playing then Rooney would be up-top scoring goals. Its a feeble argument, 'take Van Persie's goals out and look at their points total'.. You could do the exact same thing with Messi and Ronaldo, or Falcao/Cavani/Suarez or any other in form striker.
I really disagree with your and Greased's belief that Barça and Madrid would be poor if you took Messi or Ronaldo out. My argument is not bad because you can find another situation that would not be correct if you applied it there (your response is fallacious and/or a poor debating tactic).
But I think it is time to move on. I didn't mean to start a heated debate, and although I really disagree, I think the conversation has played out to the point that neither of us will convince the other of our argument.
Matt the Giant said:Doesn't the pitch at OT look pretty bad?
That's ok we have Dzeko ;)Benarbia said:Van persie showed more desire to win that ball than any of our players have In the last 3 gamrs
Stoned Rose said:Just watching Utd game which is not something I often do. Maybe 5 or 6 times a season.
It's interesting in that they do 4 things we dont-
1. They dont try to 'control' the game. They are happy to let Everton have the ball and come at them. Everton have had a lot of ball but nothing to show for it.
2, Whenever in possession everything they do is forward thinking and done with speed. You can see the thought process and instinct is 'go'. Ours isnt.
3. They use a variety of attacking methods and positions. We are much more one dimensional and readable.
4. They are ruthless when given a chance to score. We aren't.
From what I can see they make it simple. We don't.
This isn't just down to one player (RVP) they have a better system than us and they execute theirs better than we do.
GHoddle said:Stoned Rose said:Just watching Utd game which is not something I often do. Maybe 5 or 6 times a season.
It's interesting in that they do 4 things we dont-
1. They dont try to 'control' the game. They are happy to let Everton have the ball and come at them. Everton have had a lot of ball but nothing to show for it.
2, Whenever in possession everything they do is forward thinking and done with speed. You can see the thought process and instinct is 'go'. Ours isnt.
3. They use a variety of attacking methods and positions. We are much more one dimensional and readable.
4. They are ruthless when given a chance to score. We aren't.
From what I can see they make it simple. We don't.
This isn't just down to one player (RVP) they have a better system than us and they execute theirs better than we do.
Its a very effective way to play football. Might as well let the other team press forward and give you all the space to play into. I remember Chelsea under Mourinho were similar, and always beat Arsenal even though Arsenal at that time were probably a superior footballing team.
Mattyc55 said:SebastianBlue said:Mattyc55 said:If Van Persie wasn't playing then Rooney would be up-top scoring goals. Its a feeble argument, 'take Van Persie's goals out and look at their points total'.. You could do the exact same thing with Messi and Ronaldo, or Falcao/Cavani/Suarez or any other in form striker.
I really disagree with your and Greased's belief that Barça and Madrid would be poor if you took Messi or Ronaldo out. My argument is not bad because you can find another situation that would not be correct if you applied it there (your response is fallacious and/or a poor debating tactic).
But I think it is time to move on. I didn't mean to start a heated debate, and although I really disagree, I think the conversation has played out to the point that neither of us will convince the other of our argument.
No I think you misunderstood, were not saying that Barca and Real would be poor, were simply applying your theory to other sides. If Van Persie had broken his leg in pre-season and missed the whole of 12/13, theres no way in HELL United would finish 6th (which is basically what you said).. United haven't finished outside the top 4 in forever, as someone else comes in and does the business. But yes, no point discussing it.