UK far right trouble July/August 24

[Churchlawtonblue]

They’re not in the same situation though. If both crimes were committed in identical circumstances, you would have more of a point.

Anjem Choudary has just got life for incitement. It is an extremely serious crime.

Wasn't he an extreme case who had links to banned organisations ans continued to preach hate. Most of these people who post these things are doing it as one offs in the heat of the moment are they not? I repeat , Im not saying they haven't done wrong or shouldn't be punished. I just don't like the judiciary being leant on by Politicians and I fear that is happening in this case.

As another poster pointed out, why arnt we using these huge sentances to deter knife crime? If they work as deterents for incitement of violence? Surley the police should be searching kids and adults at random and anybody caught with a zombie knife should be getting three years or more in jail. Do you agree?

Even if they haven't done a crime. That's in effect what we are doing with people saying and writing things? Sentencing them to jail for crimes they may encourage? By carrying a knife you will definitely increase your chance of killing someone ?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

The national unrest aspect cannot be overlooked in this though. That’s why they’ve got harsher sentences. People have actively tried to burn hotels and mosques down due to misinformation and incitement online.

That’s serious.

Has that been proven in court? Ie that those who committed the most serious rioting did so after reading that they should do so on face book? I am not aware that this is the case? Can you show me where this was detailed in court? Or have you just assumed this?

I will add that if this has been proven beyond reasonable doubt in court and, I will agree that it is a more serious offence.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Wasn't he an extreme case who had links to banned organisations ans continued to preach hate. Most of these people who post these things are doing it as one offs in the heat of the moment are they not? I repeat , Im not saying they haven't done wrong or shouldn't be punished. I just don't like the judiciary being leant on by Politicians and I fear that is happening in this case.

As another poster pointed out, why arnt we using these huge sentances to deter knife crime? If they work as deterents for incitement of violence? Surley the police should be searching kids and adults at random and anybody caught with a zombie knife should be getting three years or more in jail. Do you agree?

Even if they haven't done a crime. That's in effect what we are doing with people saying and writing things? Sentencing them to jail for crimes they may encourage? By carrying a knife you will definitely increase your chance of killing someone ?

He was an extreme case, but I used him to show that incitement is a very serious offence.

Had it not been a time of civil disorder, I’d agree that the sentences they have received for first/early offences would be disproportionate and that community service working inside the Muslim community would be a far better fit. They weren’t one offs though. There are accounts with thousands of inciting posts on them.

Knife crime is a big issue that needs dealing with and stop and search should be used more, but it’s always then fed into the racial stereotyping nonsense.

It can’t be illegal to carry a knife as there are justifiable reasons for some to be carrying them, however how can you stop people carrying them, short of searching everyone or having huge magnets attached to lampposts?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Has that been proven in court? Ie that those who committed the most serious rioting did so after reading that they should do so on face book? I am not aware that this is the case? Can you show me where this was detailed in court? Or have you just assumed this?

They pleaded guilty as far as I’m aware. Not heard of any that have pleaded not guilty, so it hasn’t had to be proven in court as of yet.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

They pleaded guilty as far as I’m aware. Not heard of any that have pleaded not guilty, so it hasn’t had to be proven in court as of yet.

So we are sending people to jail for years based on assumptions? Are you OK with that? But it works as a deterrent so it's OK?

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

So we are sending people to jail for years based on assumptions? Are you OK with that? But it works as a deterrent so it's OK?

It incited people to go out and riot and burn buildings. I’m okay with people being punished for telling people to do that, yeah.

It’s not an assumption. They were arrested because of stuff they posted in a public space. They had their chance in court to plead not guilty, but decided against that as they had no defence.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

He was an extreme case, but I used him to show that incitement is a very serious offence.

Had it not been a time of civil disorder, I’d agree that the sentences they have received for first/early offences would be disproportionate and that community service working inside the Muslim community would be a far better fit. They weren’t one offs though. There are accounts with thousands of inciting posts on them.

Knife crime is a big issue that needs dealing with and stop and search should be used more, but it’s always then fed into the racial stereotyping nonsense.

It can’t be illegal to carry a knife as there are justifiable reasons for some to be carrying them, however how can you stop people carrying them, short of searching everyone or having huge magnets attached to lampposts?

It is actually illegal to carry a knife unless you have a good reason to do so. Ie as part of your work. Given that dozens of kids and people are dying of knife attacks every year surely the police and judiciary should be adopting the same sever sentences for carrying one to deter people and reduce knife crime? I am sure we both agree It's a national tragedy that so many people are dying because of knife crime and equally as important as dealing with rioters imo. But successive governments, the police and the courts clearly dont think so.

We have largely solved gun crime by banning them and giving people mandatory severe minimum sentances for those found carrying them. I believe it's 5 years. A quick research shows that 42% of all homicides in the UK in 2022/23 were committed by knifes, less than 5% involved firearms. What do you think should we make it three years for carrying a knife or more perhaps? I think it's pretty lenient when people are getting two years for face book posts?

But there again causing actual bodily harm by breaking a woman's jaw in broad day light by repeatedly punching her when she is on the pavement gets you less than a year. Go figure?

I guess my general point is the judiciary system in this country isn't really fit for purpose. Anyway always good to debate with you and one or two others on here. I'm now off to check for Gundo news as I have been doing every hr or so today. Lol

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

It is actually illegal to carry a knife unless you have a good reason to do so. Ie as part of your work. Given that dozens of kids and people are dying of knife attacks every year surely the police and judiciary should be adopting the same sever sentences for carrying one to deter people and reduce knife crime? I am sure we both agree It's a national tragedy that so many people are dying because of knife crime and equally as important as dealing with rioters imo. But successive governments, the police and the courts clearly dont think so.

We have largely solved gun crime by banning them and giving people mandatory severe minimum sentances for those found carrying them. I believe it's 5 years. A quick research shows that 42% of all homicides in the UK in 2022/23 were committed by knifes, less than 5% involved firearms. What do you think should we make it three years for carrying a knife or more perhaps? I think it's pretty lenient when people are getting two years for face book posts?

But there again causing actual bodily harm by breaking a woman's jaw in broad day light by repeatedly punching her when she is on the pavement gets you less than a year. Go figure?

I guess my general point is the judiciary system in this country isn't really fit for purpose. Anyway always good to debate with you and one or two others on here. I'm now off to check for Gundo news as I have been doing every hr or so today. Lol

Saying we have an issue with knives should mean that people inciting violence and murder shouldn’t face tough sentences is a non sequitur though.

Yes, we should be doing more to prevent knife crime, but we should also be doing more to stop people inciting/radicalising people online too.

Good debating with you. Let’s hope Mr Whippy will be watching us beat Ipswich at the weekend.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

I've absolutely no problem with jail terms of 2, 3 or 4 years for the rioters. People who torch buildings assault emergency workers etc.

I just feel we shouldn't be jailing people for years for holding placards, posting on face book ans shouting racial insults at others and at dogs. A couple of mths at most, is proportionate or heavy fines ans suspended sentances.

You must have read the full detail by now.

 

[west didsblue]

So we are sending people to jail for years based on assumptions? Are you OK with that? But it works as a deterrent so it's OK?

If they plead guilty then it’s only right to believe them and punish them for their admitted offence.
There’s no need for a trial when guilt is admitted.
I’m struggling to understand where you’re coming from here.