UKIP

[BigOscar]

I believe we are. Does anyone have any evidence, or recent anecdotes, to support the claim that without equality laws people would be overlooked for jobs because of their gender, colour, sexuality, etc?

Four thousand years of world history?

Again, I'm talking present day. If the equality laws were abolished tomorrow, do you really think people would revert back to middle age views on women, race and homosexuality?

I'm sorry, but if you think that racism, misogyny and general discrimination is somehow in the past, then you are either painfully naive or soft in the head. Especially when times get tough, the racists come out in full force, hence the rise of far right parties all across Europe and UKIP's rise here in the UK. The people who grew up with "no blacks, no Irish" signs are still alive and voting, they aren't from the "middle ages" as you seem to think.

 

[Rascal]

Again, I'm talking present day. If the equality laws were abolished tomorrow, do you really think people would revert back to middle age views on women, race and homosexuality?

No, because equality laws have changed perceptions to such a degree they are on the whole not an issue i believe, although there are still neanderthals abroad. But abolishing such safeguards would be foolhardy and risk years of enlightment which may encourage the remaining neanderthals to revert to theape like behaviour that most of us now find abhorrent.

You really believe that it's the equality laws that have changed perceptions? I'd be pretty disgusted in myself if I thought the only reason I'd stopped discriminating against women and ethnic minorities was because the government told me not to do it.

They have certainly not "told" you to do anything, they created through law the conditions that made so many of yesteryears views abhorrent. Thats a subtle difference in my opinion.

Mainstream opinion changed and as most of us are pretty mainstream in our social view then what became the accepted norms over time are now the established norms of society on the whole.

 

[101toMR]

No, because equality laws have changed perceptions to such a degree they are on the whole not an issue i believe, although there are still neanderthals abroad. But abolishing such safeguards would be foolhardy and risk years of enlightment which may encourage the remaining neanderthals to revert to theape like behaviour that most of us now find abhorrent.

You really believe that it's the equality laws that have changed perceptions? I'd be pretty disgusted in myself if I thought the only reason I'd stopped discriminating against women and ethnic minorities was because the government told me not to do it.

They have certainly not "told" you to do anything, they created through law the conditions that made so many of yesteryears views abhorrent. Thats a subtle difference in my opinion.

Mainstream opinion changed and as most of us are pretty mainstream in our social view then what became the accepted norms over time are now the established norms of society on the whole.

I don't think mainstream views have changed really
hating the poor is still a national sport.
And a woman having 6 kids through surrogacy and African adoption is frowned on.
If I didn't want to hire someone I wouldn't say why so I could still do it and nothing would come of it.

 

[CityStu]

So many replies at once!

@Damocles

I'd imagine the proportion of women in programming jobs is very similar to the proportion of women that are qualified in programming jobs, which is at it should be. I really don't think it's fair to discriminate against men who've worked hard to get their programming qualification in order to add some more women who haven't to address the balance.

I agree that it's a problem though, so I think alternative solutions should be found. Keeping programming as an example, it should be taught far more in schools. Get girls interested in primary school and they may just keep the subject/hobby up until they're making degree choices.

@Steve

I'm pretty young (23), so maybe I'm a little naive. I just think the dinosaurs are in a minority and certainly in a professional environment. You can laugh at a sexist joke at home but still employ women at work.

@Oscar

Again, I may be being naive. I don't think UKIP's rise is due to tons of racists coming out from behind the curtains - it's because a lot of their policies have a common sense element and because a lot of people don't like being dictated to from unelected leaders in Brussels.

@Rascal

I'd argue that the rise of the internet has done much more for getting rid of inequalities. We now get access to worldwide news instantly, can talk about issues with multiple people all over the world in a conversational manner and there's a lot of people sharing their thoughts on issues that are important to them. That's given people a much broader understanding of different cultures.

 

[blueonblue]

There should have been outrage and politicians hanging from lampposts the day these so called "Equality" laws were passed, it is they that discriminate against everyone because its those that define there IS a difference...

Any employer who gives a job to someone other than the best candidate is only damaging his own business, yet many have been forced to do just that to meet some target percentage, our local services loaded with people who would not have got the job other than their gender or skin colour, thus causing resentment and division in the workforce.

That`s NOT equality, and passing laws can never make things so.

Although well meant, it is a shallow-minded view. What you propose would be perfect for people without sensitivities/sensibilities, who all understood as you say, that there is no difference. But we don't, so it's not right yet. I see these types of actions as small social changes on the road to total equality.

So in order to force equality you bring in discrimination ?, how does causing resentment ever do that ?.
The divisions in society have been made much worse by these odious "Laws", how can minorities ever be accepted as equals when they are given an unfair advantage ?, they know they are there as a token rather than on ability, so does everyone else.

 

[Damocles]

So many replies at once!

@Damocles

I'd imagine the proportion of women in programming jobs is very similar to the proportion of women that are qualified in programming jobs, which is at it should be. I really don't think it's fair to discriminate against men who've worked hard to get their programming qualification in order to add some more women who haven't to address the balance.

I agree that it's a problem though, so I think alternative solutions should be found. Keeping programming as an example, it should be taught far more in schools. Get girls interested in primary school and they may just keep the subject/hobby up until they're making degree choices.

But that's the point - no women are taking programming degrees because they know that there's no jobs for women. There's no jobs for women because they aren't taking programming degrees.

The solution to this is attempt to find a preference for women who do currently have programming degrees and are as qualified an applicant as a male so women see that jobs in the field are attainable.

 

[TangerineSteve17]

There should have been outrage and politicians hanging from lampposts the day these so called "Equality" laws were passed, it is they that discriminate against everyone because its those that define there IS a difference...

Any employer who gives a job to someone other than the best candidate is only damaging his own business, yet many have been forced to do just that to meet some target percentage, our local services loaded with people who would not have got the job other than their gender or skin colour, thus causing resentment and division in the workforce.

That`s NOT equality, and passing laws can never make things so.

Although well meant, it is a shallow-minded view. What you propose would be perfect for people without sensitivities/sensibilities, who all understood as you say, that there is no difference. But we don't, so it's not right yet. I see these types of actions as small social changes on the road to total equality.

So in order to force equality you bring in discrimination ?, how does causing resentment ever do that ?.
The divisions in society have been made much worse by these odious "Laws", how can minorities ever be accepted as equals when they are given an unfair advantage ?, they know they are there as a token rather than on ability, so does everyone else.

Trust me. They haven't.

It is obvious the fairest system would be for those best suited to the job, get the job. Easy peasy. But we are dealing with humans here. You know, real people? All with 'differences'

As I said, your view is the end goal. We aren't ready to implement it yet.

And the first question mark. yes, yes you do. A positive one. When the resentment reaches a change in law, then, as people we might be ready.

 

[CityStu]

So many replies at once!

@Damocles

I'd imagine the proportion of women in programming jobs is very similar to the proportion of women that are qualified in programming jobs, which is at it should be. I really don't think it's fair to discriminate against men who've worked hard to get their programming qualification in order to add some more women who haven't to address the balance.

I agree that it's a problem though, so I think alternative solutions should be found. Keeping programming as an example, it should be taught far more in schools. Get girls interested in primary school and they may just keep the subject/hobby up until they're making degree choices.

But that's the point - no women are taking programming degrees because they know that there's no jobs for women. There's no jobs for women because they aren't taking programming degrees.

The solution to this is attempt to find a preference for women who do currently have programming degrees and are as qualified an applicant as a male so women see that jobs in the field are attainable.

But with the equality laws in place as they are, they know that if they had the qualification they'd be in a much better position than male graduates to get a programming job, as most companies looking for programmers would already be male heavy. The issue with females not being interested in programming has happened much much earlier.

 

[Rascal]

@Rascal

I'd argue that the rise of the internet has done much more for getting rid of inequalities. We now get access to worldwide news instantly, can talk about issues with multiple people all over the world in a conversational manner and there's a lot of people sharing their thoughts on issues that are important to them. That's given people a much broader understanding of different cultures.

Thats an interesting and well considered point. Although it could be argued that when my father was your age, women were expected not to work and be housewives and homemakers. The interent would have been seen as male work. As recently as when i was at school (lol) boys could do Computer studies, women did Home Economics. Perhaps the enlightment was there and the internet enabled greater understanding because people were more equal.

But your point is valid and its a good one, especially the cultural aspect.

 

[Damocles]

So many replies at once!

@Damocles

I'd imagine the proportion of women in programming jobs is very similar to the proportion of women that are qualified in programming jobs, which is at it should be. I really don't think it's fair to discriminate against men who've worked hard to get their programming qualification in order to add some more women who haven't to address the balance.

I agree that it's a problem though, so I think alternative solutions should be found. Keeping programming as an example, it should be taught far more in schools. Get girls interested in primary school and they may just keep the subject/hobby up until they're making degree choices.

But that's the point - no women are taking programming degrees because they know that there's no jobs for women. There's no jobs for women because they aren't taking programming degrees.

The solution to this is attempt to find a preference for women who do currently have programming degrees and are as qualified an applicant as a male so women see that jobs in the field are attainable.

But with the equality laws in place as they are, they know that if they had the qualification they'd be in a much better position than male graduates to get a programming job, as most companies looking for programmers would already be male heavy. The issue with females not being interested in programming has happened much much earlier.

Exactly, which is why the amount of female programming students has consistently grown as they see jobs becoming more available to them.

And in a few years time when the balance has sorted itself out then we won't need these laws any more.