US Politics Thread

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Both Foggy and UR have legitimate points. The original meaning was restricted to Presidents who has their replacements in coming. So Biden is a lame Duck ( i.e no real power to do long-term thinking). I mean, there's a reason why world leaders are meeting with Trump now even though Biden is still President.

However, from a political power and leverage position, Lame Duck was extended to a President in his 2nd term who generally didn't have Congress on his side... Something that often happens in the 2nd half of the Presidency's 4 years when he loses Congress in the Midterm.

But Foggy was been general and UR was pushing back against a growing narrative you would hear constantly on MSN news since the election.

Fair points by both.

And since I don't watch much MSN, I didn't know a "lame duck" thing was even A thing, narrative-wise!

I really meant it as a positive -- I want the more moderate parts of the GOP House/Senate to act as a governor on Trump's more radical ideas, which I see as more likely if they know they don't have to worry as much about being targeted as anti-Trump RINOs. I am already a bit encouraged by pushback on some of his more questionable cabinet/leadership post ideas. But there are also some I can live with -- especially Bessent-- and even Chavez-DeRemer, who was our congressional rep for our place in Oregon before she lost (I didn't like her politics but she's thoughtful I think).

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Brexiteers tried the "loser", "get over it" stuff but it hasn't stopped the economic damage nor the UK's diminished international status.

Yeah and there’s a thread still going, all about it.
‘Loser’ as a name calling, is by its nature, divisive. Whether it’s the UK or the US, at the end of the day unless you want to permanently put ‘dis-‘ in front of the ‘U’ you need to live with each other.
Discussing what is wrong before and after the election/referendum doesn’t always go very cordially but you can’t help feel there’s more could be achieved if it was at least civil.
I look at these issues as a neutral ( thicko) open to persuasion.
Like if anyone can prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump or Farage, for that matter, aren’t gobshites, so be it.
I’ll weigh up the evidence.

Seriously though.Banter or slagging is fine in my book but some of the vitriol that flows from people who can’t take a difference of opinion, tend to cross threads/topics/forum and follows them around.

At the end of the day we are all City supporters in a football forum.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Yeah and there’s a thread still going, all about it.
‘Loser’ as a name calling, is by its nature, divisive. Whether it’s the UK or the US, at the end of the day unless you want to permanently put ‘dis-‘ in front of the ‘U’ you need to live with each other.
Discussing what is wrong before and after the election/referendum doesn’t always go very cordially but you can’t help feel there’s more could be achieved if it was at least civil.
I look at these issues as a neutral ( thicko) open to persuasion.
Like if anyone can prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump or Farage, for that matter, aren’t gobshites, so be it.
I’ll weigh up the evidence.

Seriously though.Banter or slagging is fine in my book but some of the vitriol that flows from people who can’t take a difference of opinion, tend to cross threads/topics/forum and follows them around.

At the end of the day we are all City supporters in a football forum.

All fair. It gets emotional on certain social issues though.

 

[lloydie]

DING, DING, DING!!! We have a winner!!

They also want Washington behind them for a variety of reasons.

Even if the US granted Puerto Rico independence with no debt whatsoever, the Puerto Rican government (inept and corrupt that it is) would be back in a heartbeat. Kind of like an ex who divorced her husband who totally miscalculated that the grass isn’t always greener and wants back…

Somewhat more nuanced than KS55 states. The SNP would argue otherwise.

Scottish independence | Institute for Government

How could a second referendum on Scottish independence happen?

www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk

"A Yes vote in a referendum accepted as legitimate by both sides would be followed by negotiations between the UK and Scottish governments on the terms of separation, including on how to divide the assets and liabilities of the UK state and on the future relationship between the two new countries."

Further reading;

Building a new Scotland

Series of papers and speeches making the case for Scottish independence.

www.gov.scot

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I just watched Black Klansman on Netflix.
I saw it before, but this edition has footage of Charlottesville 2017 at the end of it.

Okay I realise this is a hand grenade into our cordial discussion that was developing, but Footage of David Duke at the end in 2017 mentioning Trump and MAGA and also footage of Trump commenting on what occurred is a little disturbing.
Particularly now with him taking a second term in January and the 2025 manifesto.


Next year is going to be interesting.
You know what the Chinese say about interesting times.

 

[TinFoilHat]

'Kin hell.

It looks like shooting CEOs of healthcare companies is the only way to unite the country.

 

[Dax777]

Well, if we assume the economy/inflation and immigration were the two hot button support issues for Trump, then again I don't see a tremendous amount of radical leftism in Democratic party leadership that Trump supporters objected to -- it was merely these were issues they (especially independents) didn't feel Biden solved, and/or made worse.

Incidentally we didn't recriminalize shoplifting -- we made penalties for shoplifting harsher. I voted for that. Even my very liberal wife voted for that. It won. Problem solved (maybe).

If it really does come down to social issues (which includes immigration -- the data on what immigrants add to an economy vs. what they subtract is very clear -- but the data on our crappy ability to monitor illegal entry is also clear), then I submit that we go back to a core ideology of Trump/conservative supporters: other people are getting something they didn't get, and they're upset about it.

Side note: some of Musk's fairly sudden support of Trump, I think, is a calculation of self-preservation in this regard -- he'd better join up with MAGA before he (Mr. Electric Car, Mr. Tech Bro, Mr. Immigrant, Mr. Hyper-Rich) becomes the target of MAGA since he has so much others don't.

This is where I begin to have problems -- as we've discussed very often before -- social media have made people more keenly aware of their shortcomings/lack to relative success/lack of fame (Andy Warhol was SO prescient!), and they're angry. And along comes a guy who gives them very convenient targets to blame for why they never lived up to what they could be.

But when we really start breaking down agency issues on a case by case basis, there are places for common ground -- like student loan forgiveness, e.g., where I personally have a real problem -- and places open for respectful discussion -- like DEI issues, where I don't have a problem, but I can absolutely see (and have seen) abuse. Then there's support for LGBTQ+ (especially trans people), where you simply aren't going to shake the deeply held liberal view that there's a ton of prejudice on the right side of the aisle. Yet all these issues seem amalgamated into this similar conservative belief connection -- no one should be entitled to get what I didn't (or couldn't).

Then we have the three hot buttons -- abortion, speech and gun control. Democrats tend to share common sense views on all three. Conservatives tend to be "all or nothing" on them. Not sure how we can't consider conservatives more extremist in this regard.

All this said, Trump won, and won clearly, and the reality is we are all going to have to beat swords into ploughshares if we really want to solve problems. I am hopeful the focus is economic and not social. As I've mentioned, with all the time I've spent in rural farmbelt America, the urban left's understanding of this life is often poor and sometimes callous. Quite frankly, I am exhausted with demonizing, my own included. But I am also very protective of and frightened for my LGBTQ+ kid and the world she'll grow up in.

Let me start by picking a bone: I consider voting for harsher sentences for shoplifting as "recriminalizing". You are just using more accurate words. The effect is in essence the same. :)

Overall, I think your response looked at this from the point of view of the election and Trump winning.I was saying more generally, that people who are either apolitical or not on the left, have good reason to oppose some of its excesses of the left in so far as it affects them personally or intellectually.

But I wanted to requote this point, and it's one you r made often:

"then I submit that we go back to a core ideology of Trump/conservative supporters: other people are getting something they didn't get, and they're upset about it."

This quote epitomizes the hand waving away of legitimate grievance I was talking about... I mean you can apply that very same framework to any ill:

Oh black people are slaves and they don't like it? Just another group complaining that others people (whites) are getting something they didn't get (freedom), and they don't like it."

Women want rights? Just another group complaining that other groups ( men ) are getting something they didn't get ( right to vote) and they don't like it

Gay people want rights? Just another group complaining that other people (straights) are getting something they did not get (right to marry) and they don't like it.

You see how easy it is to dismiss any ill using that framework? That's exactly the point I was making.

 

[Dax777]

I just watched Black Klansman on Netflix.
I saw it before, but this edition has footage of Charlottesville 2017 at the end of it.

Okay I realise this is a hand grenade into our cordial discussion that was developing, but Footage of David Duke at the end in 2017 mentioning Trump and MAGA and also footage of Trump commenting on what occurred is a little disturbing.
Particularly now with him taking a second term in January and the 2025 manifesto.


Next year is going to be interesting.
You know what the Chinese say about interesting times.

What if you don't mind me asking were Trump's comments?

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

What if you don't mind me asking were Trump's comments?

In fairness, like quite often, he didn’t say anything actually incriminating himself Dax.

He said there were bad people on both sides. He didn’t condemn the actions of those that drove the car through the crowd. He says there were good people too with them.

I wasn’t expecting this at the end of the movie and I don’t know who added it., or was it always there? I really don’t remember. Whether it came from Spike Lee or not.

However watching the movie( see I can speak American), which is from 2018, one thing that struck me in it was the depiction of Dukes using those words of making America Great again.

Looking at the footage, this is factual.

No smoking gun there Dax, but the visuals at the end were certainly implying something.
Whether it’s a case of Trump not alienating what proves to be a very fertile electoral base or something more sinister or not, I don’t know but I find either scenario unsavoury.

Pure coincidence I watched this tonight.
Makes probably no difference to the ongoing discussion in here. I would hope not anyway.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

DING, DING, DING!!! We have a winner!!

They also want Washington behind them for a variety of reasons.

Even if the US granted Puerto Rico independence with no debt whatsoever, the Puerto Rican government (inept and corrupt that it is) would be back in a heartbeat. Kind of like an ex who divorced her husband who totally miscalculated that the grass isn’t always greener and wants back…

You're not bitter anymore then?

Did she run off with the pool cleaner?