US Presidential Election, Nov 5th 2024

[Dax777]

But who is making fun of it? That’s what I don’t get. Certainly not Biden who is a committed Christian. It’s not institutionalized as part of the Democratic Party platform to “make fun of” Christians. There are several Christian references in the Republican platform (which IMO there should not be) so I get where you’re coming from but I know plenty of secular Republicans who mock evangelicals regularly. It’s not party-specific. And you know this. For Pete’s sake my LAWYER is evangelical and on the few instances we’ve discussed it he’s had a hard time reconciling this behavior of Trump with the idea that GOP is more Christian — to pretend the dissonance isn’t causing agita is silly if you’re a committed Christian.

Again, I'll have to agree with you in the entirety.

This entire discussion started over a question of why Christians will vote for someone as odious as Trump. To which I replied they are voting for the Party that is more Christian like and more likely to protect Christians or propose laws Christians want rather than the odious dude.

Your point that the Republican platform generally includes pro-Christian references is exactly the point.

Between an odious man with some Christianity in his platform and (to them) an odious woman with no Christianity in her platform, the choice really isn't that particularly hard.

This is not to argue that Christians may not struggle with reconciling Trump's behavior with good Christian ethic... But the alternative is what exactly? Support the party that has no Christianity attached to it?


To put it differently: How can a Christian support Trump in a vacuum is complicated. How can you Support Trump and the Republican party in light of the alternative is hardly complicated.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

But who is making fun of it? That’s what I don’t get. Certainly not Biden who is a committed Christian. It’s not institutionalized as part of the Democratic Party platform to “make fun of” Christians. There are several Christian references in the Republican platform (which IMO there should not be) so I get where you’re coming from but I know plenty of secular Republicans who mock evangelicals regularly. It’s not party-specific. And you know this. For Pete’s sake my LAWYER is evangelical and on the few instances we’ve discussed it he’s had a hard time reconciling this behavior of Trump with the idea that GOP is more Christian — to pretend the dissonance isn’t causing agita is silly if you’re a committed Christian.

Your view just doesn’t meet the evidence test, I’m sorry. I get how you might feel — especially in the context of a British chat room — but there’s a different between the “religious” and the “religious right”.

Pride, greed, lust, envy, gluttony, wrath and sloth - The seven deadly sins of the Catholic church that the Orange monster exhibits in every single breathing moment of his entire miserable life. and the GOP have hitched their waggon firmly to that train.

Holding true religious beliefs is no more of a reason for voting for Trump than strawberry yoghurt is for the extinction of the dinosaurs (yes folks, dinosaurs were real, and the Earth isn't 3000 years old).

 

[I'm With Stupid]

Christianity's view on Abortion - more Republicans believe in it.

There is no "Christianity's view" when it comes to abortion. And for years, Evangelical groups in the US had no real opinion on it. Catholic groups have always opposed it, and to Evangelicals, it was very much a Catholic issue that they didn't want to get involved in.

This all changed as recently as the 70s. And it was absolutely nothing to do with theology. The main motivation was the feminists were campaigning for access to abortion along with various other women's rights, and in their campaign, they were attacking religion as a barrier to this. The Evangelical shift to anti-abortion was not theologically-based, it was purely an anti-feminist, political position. And it's clear to see why, because while it would be naive to suggest that the Bible has no issue with abortion, you have to do some pretty impressive mental and semantic gymnastics to claim that it says it's equivalent to murder.

“Whether the performance of an induced abortion is sinful we are not agreed,” the statement read, “but about the necessity of it and permissibility for it under certain circumstances we are in accord.” - Christianity Today, 1968 after a multi-day debate featuring 26 of the leading theologians of the Evangelical movement.

 

[FogBlueInSanFran]

Again, I'll have to agree with you in the entirety.

This entire discussion started over a question of why Christians will vote for someone as odious as Trump. To which I replied they are voting for the Party that is more Christian like and more likely to protect Christians or propose laws Christians want rather than the odious dude.

Your point that the Republican platform generally includes pro-Christian references is exactly the point.

Between an odious man with some Christianity in his platform and (to them) an odious woman with no Christianity in her platform, the choice really isn't that particularly hard.

This is not to argue that Christians may not struggle with reconciling Trump's behavior with good Christian ethic... But the alternative is what exactly? Support the party that has no Christianity attached to it?


To put it differently: How can a Christian support Trump in a vacuum is complicated. How can you Support Trump and the Republican party in light of the alternative is hardly complicated.

Trump IS a vacuum. This gets back to my earlier point. He has “Republican” attached to his name specifically because there were so few good Republican candidates. He WAS a Democrat until he couldn’t win as one. You aren’t voting for a Republican. You are voting for Trump. That’s literally the entire point of why I can’t support him. He does not care about America, Republicans, Democrats, nor people who are not him. He cares about himself. He’s uniquely venal. The entirety of the evidence set supports this view. This is why so many committed Republicans walked away from him, including nearly his entire cabinet. They gave up lifelong careers and walked away from the pinnacle of their achievements because he’s NOT a Republican. These are incredible sacrifices.

And yet here we are.

You can be a Republican and not support nor vote for and in fact be horrified by Donald Trump. You do not have to go with the “label” crowd. You can stand up for what you know in your heart is right.

Standing up wasn’t even that hard. No one had to know who you voted for — or even if you voted at all.

But not enough could do it, or see it, I guess.

 

[KS55]

Trump IS a vacuum. This gets back to my earlier point. He has “Republican” attached to his name specifically because there were so few good Republican candidates. He WAS a Democrat until he couldn’t win as one. You aren’t voting for a Republican. You are voting for Trump. That’s literally the entire point of why I can’t support him. He does not care about America, Republicans, Democrats, nor people who are not him. He cares about himself. He’s uniquely venal. The entirety of the evidence set supports this view. This is why so many committed Republicans walked away from him, including nearly his entire cabinet. They gave up lifelong careers and walked away from the pinnacle of their achievements because he’s NOT a Republican.

And yet here we are.

“Trump is a vacuum”……or maybe a Hoover. Sorry, but neat double reference.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Trump IS a vacuum. This gets back to my earlier point. He has “Republican” attached to his name specifically because there were so few good Republican candidates. He WAS a Democrat until he couldn’t win as one. You aren’t voting for a Republican. You are voting for Trump. That’s literally the entire point of why I can’t support him. He does not care about America, Republicans, Democrats, nor people who are not him. He cares about himself. He’s uniquely venal. The entirety of the evidence set supports this view. This is why so many committed Republicans walked away from him, including nearly his entire cabinet. They gave up lifelong careers and walked away from the pinnacle of their achievements because he’s NOT a Republican.

And yet here we are.

Raskin says it so much better than I ever could...

 

[Dax777]

There is no "Christianity's view" when it comes to abortion. And for years, Evangelical groups in the US had no real opinion on it. Catholic groups have always opposed it, and to Evangelicals, it was very much a Catholic issue that they didn't want to get involved in.

At the risk of derailing this thread, assuming that hasn't already happened:

Abortion has a Christian view. That some Christians didn't seem to have an opinion on it, doesn't change that.

For the record, Catholics are Christians too. But the Christainic historical view on abortion from the early days of the church until now isnt cloudy From the Didache in the early church to the teachings of Paul, the view on Abortion is clear. Christian doctrine is against it.

This all changed as recently as the 70s. And it was absolutely nothing to do with theology. The main motivation was the feminists were campaigning for access to abortion along with various other women's rights, and in their campaign, they were attacking religion as a barrier to this. The Evangelical shift to anti-abortion was not theologically-based, it was purely an anti-feminist, political position. And it's clear to see why, because while it would be naive to suggest that the Bible has no issue with abortion, you have to do some pretty impressive mental and semantic gymnastics to claim that it says it's equivalent to murder.

Even your point hints at their being a Christian view that was in opposition to what the feminist wanted, or else why would they be attacking religion?

“Whether the performance of an induced abortion is sinful we are not agreed,” the statement read, “but about the necessity of it and permissibility for it under certain circumstances we are in accord.” - Christianity Today, 1968 after a multi-day debate featuring 26 of the leading theologians of the Evangelical movement.

Thanks for the insight on how CT stood in 1968. But Christianity long predates CT.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

I don’t think it’s that complicated. The GOP talks about Christianity more. That’s good enough for Dax to say what he’s said.

There are problems. One is that Dax is a ACTUAL committed Christian so he has an unusual bit of cognitive dissonance around this point relative to his other views given the number of GOPers who make a mockery of Christian ideals while spouting off about it, including Trump, which is why he’s struggling to justify his point more deeply I think.

Two, just because you talk about it doesn’t mean you reflect it. Not Dax — I mean certain GOPers.

And three, as I’ve pointed out, neither side should be discussing religion at all except in the context of all being equal in the eyes of the state, and in how they might influence international political dynamics.

Hypocrisy and greed connected to religions has been around since, well, religion. Hence my view that the U.S. should do even more to separate church and state. Like fuck off the motto on our legal tender e. g. and remove the word God from our pledge of allegiance and the courtroom. I freely admit I’m a radical in this regard and that I don’t think it’s important enough to care THAT much.

Amen to that.

 

[Vic]

Fair enough. I've just read in these political pages enough people denigrating conservatives, specifically because they are religious and never once read anyone say anything similar about Democrats.

The tenets of Christianity are the same :

Believing in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. More of the people who believe that are Republicans.

Believing the 10 commandments.... More Republicans believe this.

Christianity's view on Abortion - more Republicans believe in it.

On Marriage: Republicans

On Homosexuality: Republicans

Even on tolerance: Still Republicans are more tolerant.

I thought Christianity was something looked down on around these parts. Why am I here trying to convince folks that the thing they look down on belongs more to the other side.

This is all strange to me.

Thanks (finally) for explaining.

What people are doing is denigrating the morality of GOP Christians who turn a blind eye to Trump's immorality.

From the false witness of "alternative facts" to the adultery and covetousness (greed), Trump is more surely sinner than saint. And that's just by the Old Testament, let alone the "do to others as you would have them do to you" of their Lord and Saviour.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Trump IS a vacuum. This gets back to my earlier point. He has “Republican” attached to his name specifically because there were so few good Republican candidates. He WAS a Democrat until he couldn’t win as one. You aren’t voting for a Republican. You are voting for Trump. That’s literally the entire point of why I can’t support him. He does not care about America, Republicans, Democrats, nor people who are not him. He cares about himself. He’s uniquely venal. The entirety of the evidence set supports this view. This is why so many committed Republicans walked away from him, including nearly his entire cabinet. They gave up lifelong careers and walked away from the pinnacle of their achievements because he’s NOT a Republican. These are incredible sacrifices.

And yet here we are.

You can be a Republican and not support nor vote for and in fact be horrified by Donald Trump. You do not have to go with the “label” crowd. You can stand up for what you know in your heart is right.

Standing up wasn’t even that hard. No one had to know who you voted for — or even if you voted at all.

But not enough could do it, or see it, I guess.

I’m glad I’ve resisted jumping in on this whole Christian Rep/Dem debate. You’ve saved me a ton of typing.

There again I don’t see the point in preaching to those that know the truth but choose to meander around it.