I think most of us knew uefa would put us out eventually, it was just a case of which round .
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Var debate 2019/20
- Thread starter Chi-town blues
- Start date
burning blue soul
Well-Known Member
The slowed down footage clearly shows the ball deflected off Llorente’s arm before hitting his thigh and ended up in the net.
AS’s resident referee Iturralde González commented: ”It hits his hand first then his hip and the UEFA instructions are clear: you can't score if it hits your hand, even if it’s involuntary. It doesn't matter if the elbow is tight to the body. If it happens to a defender it's not a penalty, but if it's an attacker it has to be disallowed. Rossetti has told the UEFA referees.”
He added: "Irrati (the VAR) - the number one VAR official - advises Çakir because he's seen a hand. When Çakir comes back from seeing the images he tells the players 'I didn't see anything. It hit his thigh.' They didn't play him the view from behind where you can see it hits the elbow. The error from the VAR is not showing the two key images. Why? The question is getting it right, not how long it takes."
AS’s resident ref's conclusion: "Manchester City are out because the VAR wasn't used properly".
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.givemesport.com/1469129-fernando-llorentes-handball-v-man-city-slowed-down-footage-emerges?amp
My conclusion: People in the VAR room had the luxury of having multiple angles and clearly saw that the ball hit the arm of Llorente but refused to show that angle because there was an agenda already.
Thank fuck Stan collymore is quoted at the end to clear up the confusion. That's all that was needed, a respected figure in the game to talk his usual sense!!!
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Deleted member 77198
Guest
That’s at super super slow motion. And even then he tucks his arm into his body.If you watch this clip you can see that llorente is clearly looking at the flight of the ball, he moves his elbow out slightly, then as it gets nearer he adjusts his arm position back towards him almost to ensure the ball hits off the firm part of his elbow (which would be logical to get the most power off the impact) which directs the ball towards goal brushing off his hip.
I should move on from this but I'm still absolutely fuming that the technology intended to get decisions right has so spectacularly failed.
Watch that at full speed and there’s absolutely no way on Earth that’s hand ball.
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader
Well-Known Member
The slowed down footage clearly shows the ball deflected off Llorente’s arm before hitting his thigh and ended up in the net.
AS’s resident referee Iturralde González commented: ”It hits his hand first then his hip and the UEFA instructions are clear: you can't score if it hits your hand, even if it’s involuntary. It doesn't matter if the elbow is tight to the body. If it happens to a defender it's not a penalty, but if it's an attacker it has to be disallowed. Rossetti has told the UEFA referees.”
He added: "Irrati (the VAR) - the number one VAR official - advises Çakir because he's seen a hand. When Çakir comes back from seeing the images he tells the players 'I didn't see anything. It hit his thigh.' They didn't play him the view from behind where you can see it hits the elbow. The error from the VAR is not showing the two key images. Why? The question is getting it right, not how long it takes."
AS’s resident ref's conclusion: "Manchester City are out because the VAR wasn't used properly".
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.givemesport.com/1469129-fernando-llorentes-handball-v-man-city-slowed-down-footage-emerges?amp
My conclusion: People in the VAR room had the luxury of having multiple angles and clearly saw that the ball hit the arm of Llorente but refused to show that angle because there was an agenda already.
Nobody who follows the game and wishes to see titles and trophies won because of what happens on the pitch would dismiss the use of technology to better inform the blind bat with the whistle and the partially-sighted with the flags! There is but one stipulation as far as I am concerned and that VAR is used properly. And that means the ref has access to every available angle and the fans share the footage. Anything less I would regard as a 'governing body' fudge that could only lead me to think they want an outcome that is at variance with what has actually happened. Just imagine the footage on the screen last Wednesday and we see the angle from behind the goal. We wait, we wait, we wait a little longer and then VAR indicates a legal goal!! it would be pandemonium!
City fans have gone through the whole gamut of 'reasons' as to why our season has hit the odd buffer and why we might, might, end up without the PL title, but I would point to two instances where a goal has been scored with the use of an arm - at Molineux and at The Etihad last Wednesday. Had the refs, linos and VAR done their jobs properly we would be two points better off and playing Ajax in the next round. Nothing else has contributed directly than those two incidents.
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Deleted member 77198
Guest
I posted the link to the FIFA rules the other day and that’s exactly what it says. “Intentional”Has to be deliberate according to the rules.
Going back decades nobody has ever said any differently until Wednesday night when someone screen shot some made up rule from somewhere and everyone has fallen for it.
BLUE THUNDER
Well-Known Member
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Where did you post the link ?..up your arse more likelyI posted the link to the FIFA rules the other day and that’s exactly what it says. “Intentional”
Going back decades nobody has ever said any differently until Wednesday night when someone screen shot some made up rule from somewhere and everyone has fallen for it.
Clown
Gordyola
Well-Known Member
I posted the link to the FIFA rules the other day and that’s exactly what it says. “Intentional”
Going back decades nobody has ever said any differently until Wednesday night when someone screen shot some made up rule from somewhere and everyone has fallen for it.
It more than that though. It’s been discussed many time on BT Sport after the penalty awards for handball. A directive to refs, in the way handball is interpreted in the ECL, is different than what is written in the LoTG. Peter Warton has stated the fact, following the Rose handball in the first leg said, that under the new interpretation it was handball. I don’t know what he said about Wednesday but, having listened to all the arguments following the 3 handball decisions then if the ref had seen the angle from behind the goal I’m certain he would have given it.
The only question that should be asked is why he wasn’t shown all camera angles?
Pablo ZZZ Peroni
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- Messages
- 2,473
I posted the link to the FIFA rules the other day and that’s exactly what it says. “Intentional”
Going back decades nobody has ever said any differently until Wednesday night when someone screen shot some made up rule from somewhere and everyone has fallen for it.
New IFAB laws of the game effective from 1st June 2019
The relevant bit from there:
The following ‘handball’ situations, even if accidental, will be a free kick:
• the ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm
• a player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touches their hand/arm
and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity
Even Peter Walton conceded on ESPN yesterday that based on these rules it would be a penalty. The other night he couldn't see the handball but having seen the full video evidence he now accepts the ball touched the arm.
The only threshold is did it touch his hand or arm. It is as simple as that and turns it into a "matter of fact" rather than a subjective view on intent etc.
Now, these rules aren't law until 1st June. However, the head of UEFA referees issued a directive to Champions League referees earlier in the year that they should apply ALL the new rules in Champions League knock-outs. For example, there are changes to what constitutes "deliberate" or not for penalties and based on the new definitions penalties have been awarded such as Rose and for United in the PSG game.
In conclusion, the goal should have been disallowed. VAR failed because the ref presumably couldn't see from his images that the ball touched the arm. He would have seen with the best replay.
Last edited:
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader
Well-Known Member
New IFAB laws of the game effective from 1st June 2019
The relevant bit from there:
The following ‘handball’ situations, even if accidental, will be a free kick:
• the ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player’s hand/arm
• a player gains control/possession of the ball after it has touches their hand/arm
and then scores, or creates a goal-scoring opportunity
Even Peter Walton conceded on ESPN yesterday that based on these rules it would be a penalty. The other night he couldn't see the handball but having seen the full video evidence he now accepts the ball touched the arm.
The only threshold is did it touch his hand or arm. It is as simple as that and turns it into a "matter of fact" rather than a subjective view on intent etc.
Now, these rules aren't law until 1st June. However, the head of UEFA referees issued a directive to Champions League referees earlier in the year that they should apply ALL the new rules in Champions League knock-outs. For example, there are changes to what constitutes "deliberate" or not for penalties and based on the new definitions penalties have been awarded such as Rose and for United in the PSG game.
In conclusion, the goal should have been disallowed. VAR failed because the ref presumably couldn't see from his images that the ball touched the arm. He would have seen with the best replay.
The age old law of 'intentional' handball has caused all the problems. How does anyone know that it was intentional? You could get someone catching the ball and then turning round and saying I didn't intend to catch it, it just happened! But to outlaw the use of arm or hand in scoring a goal, and being clear when you have the ball blasted at you in you own penalty area is not a penalty, is a clear way forward. I doubt, though, that Uefa and their chosen whistlers, VAR aided, will come up with consistent decisions.
Trevor Morley's Tache
Well-Known Member
I said that at the time. You could see the disappointment in his face when it went to VAR. I thought at that point it would be overturned, but the longer it went on the more I thought they were looking to give it.Llorente, himself, KNEW it was handball. That about covers it, don’t you think?!
BENT AS F*CK!