Var debate 2019/20

[Blue Mooner]

I hope you don't mind me throwing my thoughts in

With the handball last night and the current UEFA interpretation there seem to be a few key elements (I'll use hand to mean hand or arm for ease and we all know it touched his hand so no point in discussing that element!):
1. Was the hand in a position that increased the player's silhouette - his elbow was tucked in and his hand across his body so no
2. In the act of scoring did the touch on the hand control the ball - it glanced off his hand onto his hip so he didn't control it. I think this is the greyest area though: if it came off his hand, fell to his feet and he kicked in in then I would say that is controlling it whereas the flight of the ball barely changing and hitting his thigh 4 inches away?? Doesn't sound like 'controlling it' to me. If it was 'benefited' from contact with the hand then it would be a yes: the slight change in direction of the ball resulted in the contact with the hip taking the ball into the net.
3. Did he score directly from the hand - no because it went in off his thigh/hip

So there is a tiny grey area that is presumably down to interpretation and I hope that marginal decision went down to going with the ref's on field decision. As he had awarded the goal they stuck with that decision but if he had given it as handball that would have stood.

It definitely wasn't clear and obvious though, however that term seems to be arbitrarily invoked by the VAR officials. Every Spurs and neutral I've spoken to thought that Fernandinho's elbow to Kane's head last week was clear and obvious but they didn't bother with that at all.

So across the two legs VAR got the Rose handball and the Aguero offside right, the Fernandinho elbow wrong and the Llorente handball probably/possibly right. If VAR hadn't have been used then you wouldn't have got a penalty but Sterling's goal would have stood as those two reversed the on field decisions and the other two would be no change. So with VAR you (City) benefited once and lost out once. As you didn't score the penalty that made the difference in the end result but is VAR to blame, Aguero for a tame penalty or Lloris for a decent save?

I do feel for you though. I just assumed that every VAR decision would go against us as Spurs have missed out on results in countless big matches over the last decade where VAR would have been in our favour (especially against Arsenal and Chelsea). It seemed like sod's law that it coming in would only rule against us: as it did for the Rose handball which I thought would just be the first of many.

Anyway, as I said in the post match thread yesterday, best of luck for the rest of the season. Do NOT let the scousers win the league!!

Leaving aside your very one-eyed description of the Llorente handball, you can only be auditioning for a stand-up comedian role with the bolded. Presumably you didn't see:
- 2015 game with City where you benefitted from 2 blatant offside, the first of which was close to 2 yards
- 2016 game when you won courtesy of a penalty that hit Raheem on the back
- Jan 2017 game when Sterling was pushed in the penalty area as he was about to slot the winning goal
- Dec 2017 game when Kane and Dele Alli both escaped red cards for leg-breaking tackles

Getting diddled against Spurs has become an annual event for us like Christmas or the Trooping of the Colour. So take your fact-free post and fuck off back to your shiny new stadium.

Noapolsforbeingspurs what you may have realised now in the top trumps of getting sh*t decisions we trump the lot, don't doubt you've felt shafted when playing the dippers, rags et al but when you play City we trump the lot Spurs included.

 

[TheGoodJoe]

Still stick to the fact that those in the VAR room with the multiple screens with the multiple angle saw that it was clear as daylight in one of the footages and refused to show it to the referee.

That alone shows that it was more than a mistake.

 

[TheGoodJoe]

The slowed down footage clearly shows the ball deflected off Llorente’s arm before hitting his thigh and ended up in the net.

AS’s resident referee Iturralde González commented: ”It hits his hand first then his hip and the UEFA instructions are clear: you can't score if it hits your hand, even if it’s involuntary. It doesn't matter if the elbow is tight to the body. If it happens to a defender it's not a penalty, but if it's an attacker it has to be disallowed. Rossetti has told the UEFA referees.”

He added: "Irrati (the VAR) - the number one VAR official - advises Çakir because he's seen a hand. When Çakir comes back from seeing the images he tells the players 'I didn't see anything. It hit his thigh.' They didn't play him the view from behind where you can see it hits the elbow. The error from the VAR is not showing the two key images. Why? The question is getting it right, not how long it takes."

AS’s resident ref's conclusion: "Manchester City are out because the VAR wasn't used properly".
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gi...ll-v-man-city-slowed-down-footage-emerges?amp

My conclusion: People in the VAR room had the luxury of having multiple angles and clearly saw that the ball hit the arm of Llorente but refused to show that angle because there was an agenda already.

 

[SilverFox2]

Has to be deliberate according to the rules.

Possibly why the ref looked to see if the arm moved the hand towards the ball?
He was made aware by someone that handball occured (probably video ref) so no need to verify it but it would justify his decision to allow the goal if no arm movement from a different angle.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

There is absolutely no chance of what happened to us happening to the rags or dippers. Non at all.

Sadly, you may be right, but if contentious VAR decisions are going to be a regular occurrence, then blatantly favouring
these two is very quickly going to get picked up on by rival fans. VAR is supposed to end all argument, if this happened,
and the papers/media are getting swamped by outraged fans, then VAR will have real problems, it records all events now,
we've not had this before, other than TV replays, which didn't alter decisions, this system does, and if it doesn't very
quickly get it right, (which I've no objection to), it won't be acceptable.

 

[stonerblue]

I take back what I said. I shouldn't have called someone a coward. Oackie thanks for being a perfect gentleman.

Well done.

 

[stonerblue]

Currently it is a joke. I am thinking from your user name you are saying VAR isn’t a joke because you sit at home watching it on TV. Try going to every game and try standing there when the big screen says “VAR Review” and looking around wondering what the fxxk is happening. Thinking “I am so glad I paid for my return flight to the game, hotel and match ticket. I could have stayed at home paid buttons to watch it on Tv” like a load of neutrals and vaguely interested TV viewers and actually be watching the VAR replays. But instead i am 400 quid down and no Fxxkin idea what is going on. VAR is utter sh1te

Eggfukkinzactly.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Those are cases of a defender making themselves a bigger target. To rule out the Llorente goal you would have to show that it was deliberate and in this context consider he is surrounded by defenders in a melee and consider the distance the ball travels after it passes the City defenders. The touch in also incidental. The contact that decisively moved it goal bound was not the forearm. We can hardly say he put it in with his arm.

This is pretty much my feeling.
Did it hit Llorente's arm? Yes.
Was it deliberate (as in, did he deiberately play the ball with his arm? I don't think so.
Was it enough to count as handball and to disallow the goal? Not a clue!

 

[MillionMilesAway]

It's pretty fucking obvious that the ball clearly bounces of his forearm onto his hip and then on goal. This is clear in the replay that WASN'T shown to the ref (still no valid explanation as to why ?????). If you cant see this then your a blind bat or fuckin deluded.
Those fuckwits that say it has to be deliberate give your head a wobble, he's not a defender and the rule states you cant score a goal when your hand/arm has contributed to the goal regardless if it was intentional or not.

IFAB LAWS OF THE GAME

"a player gains control/possession of the ball after it touches their hand/arm and then scores or creates a goal-scoring opportunity." Another one says it's a free kick if "the ball goes into the goal after touching an attacking player's hand/arm."

I believe that both of those lines are in the revised laws which start next season, not now.

 

[homerdog]

Marvin said: ↑
Has to be deliberate according to the rules.

Possibly why the ref looked to see if the arm moved the hand towards the ball?
He was made aware by someone that handball occured (probably video ref) so no need to verify it but it would justify his decision to allow the goal if no arm movement from a different angle.

I think it has been clearly established that it should have been disallowed, I'm not sure what either of you are missing here?

The debate is about why the referee wasn't shown the footage that clearly showed it hitting his arm - corruption or incompetence?

As far as UEFA and the media are concerned, it seems that the right result was achieved (us going out), so VAR did its job admirably.