Var debate 2019/20

[SilverFox2]

Until they can get round the fact that at 25 camera frames per second, the margin of error can be up to about a foot, they need to think again about using it for millimetre margins.

Thinking about it, the margin of error is going to be proportional to the closing speed of the attacker and defender and it should not be impossible to allow for that error in the calculation.

Exactly this.

 

[Manchester33]

Doesn't anyone else feel that a little bit of soul has been taken out of the game? The human element of the ref was a big talking point and that's gone.

I think you could argue a little bit of soul has been taken out of the game in regards to the hesitation shown towards celebrating goals. That rush of blood moment, the adrenaline is what most people got hooked through.

Regarding the human element of the referee, that's one element of football's soul I'd like to see removed. There should be no occasion where one team gains an advantage over another due to poor officiating. It's boring listening to pundits discredit great performances, tactics etc, in order to focus on a dive or dodgy tackle. I'm hoping we can focus more time to reviewing football as opposed to contentious refereeing decisions.

The current system seems flawed after just a week of use. But the Premier League will make continuous improvements to further integrate technology more seamlessly.

 

[Chi-town blues]

but the 'old system' had far far more goals disallowed which they shouldn't have been

Really? What’s the stat for allowed vs disallowed?
That’s not the point . The point is var wants to go anal about mm and in that case they have no room for any error. Meaning there should not be any doubt or question asked . No bias no cheat no manipulation of shitty shots . Tech is introduced to eliminate those human errors you talked about but it has raised more questions instead.

 

[OB1]

but the 'old system' had far far more goals disallowed which they shouldn't have been

Did it? I've not seen any stats on that.

The problem is though that celebrations are going to be affected for more goals than were allowed or disallowed incorrectly under the old system.

The best moments of pretty much any game for the match going supporter are surely those euphoric moments when the ball hits the back of the opponents' net? Tampering with that is intensely dim IMO.

 

[OB1]

Yes. It's all probably good entertainment if you're neutral, but if you're supporting one side or another it's crazy. Even if VAR does not get involved, every time we score now I look to the ref, and wait. Is he getting a message? I watched the game on BT Sport. I heard that celebrations of a glorious Sterling goal (the lob) were muted because many blues thought it would be ruled out because of VAR. Very sad. It damages enjoyment of fans at the game and introduces an added layer of complexity.

I am in favour of a VAR that works accurately and quickly. The sooner that happens the better. Probably 4-5 seasons off yet. This effort is premature.

At some point one assumes that they will be able to produce systems that track exactly in real time where the ball is and all the players are and thus have a system like goal line technology that can almost instantly inform the officials if a goal scorer or assister etc is onside. That may need some adjustment of the offside rule, which I believe is needed (as noted above). When we have that level of tech, it will be hard to argue against. We cannot be far off - surely it's a kind of hybrid of Opta and VAR; plus maybe AI.

 

[Chi-town blues]

At some point one assumes that they will be able to produce systems that track exactly in real time where the ball is and all the players are and thus have a system like goal line technology that can almost instantly inform the officials if a goal scorer or assister etc is onside. That may need some adjustment of the offside rule, which I believe is needed (as noted above). When we have that level of tech, it will be hard to argue against. We cannot be far off - surely it's a kind of hybrid of Opta and VAR; plus maybe AI.

Ai has come a long way and it blows my mind what it can do .

 

[SWP's back]

VAR are apparently using when they first strike it, but you could argue they should not.

Not if you look at the rules you couldn’t.

 

[OB1]

Ai has come a long way and it blows my mind what it can do .

And the rate of technological advancement should just speed up!

 

[Scaring Europe to Death]

On a slightly related note:

I was one of the City fans who attended the 2-0 defeat at Sheffield Wednesday on New Year’s Day 1990, which for a number of reasons, remains the last top-flight football fixture to be contested without a single TV camera in the stadium.

Unless, you were present at Hillsborough, you won’t remember David Hirst replacing Kevin Pressman in the Wednesday goal, or City somehow losing a game that we totally dominated.

However, as Martin Samuel alluded on Sunday Supplement, the football supporting wheel has come full circle.

After returning from a game, the opinion of the match-attending supporter was always critical ,whereas nowadays, he waits for somebody to confirm if he can celebrate.

Slightly sad, but there's no going back.

 

[M12Blue]

No one has any objections to referees using technology but any system has to be in real time, or as near as makes no difference.

I am sure that it will evolve and improve but why not suspend it until it is ready?

Perhaps we are doing a disservice to it, but then if you keep it under wraps, and don't discuss its capabilities then what do you expect.

I understand that the presshave all been invited to workshops, Q&A sessions etc but they are too busy writing about tactical fouling to do their more fundamental job which is to act as the guardians of the game. Shearer is a VAR ambassador. The rest of the media should ask the questions, raise the issues.

What is the margin of error on an offside? Can they showcase their decisions retrospectively? What is the review time for an offside call? What developments are in the pipeline? Has it all been independently verified?

Andy Gray has already shown that the system is questionable in his review of the West Ham v City game. And for those who say that's not the system, then what is it? It's VAR. Certainly going to be very similar because we've seen their screenshots of final evidence.

As usual we wait until a Man Utd or Liverpool find themselves on the wrong end, then the media will show an interest.

Can’t disagree with any of that mate.
Year on year improvement what is required but they seem determined to ensure a gnats whisker can be counted as offside, regardless of how long it takes.

 

[kaz7]

Sorry if i'm a bit late

Guidelines surrounding offside decisions made by VAR will be reviewed following Manchester City's disallowed goal against West Ham. Talks will be held over whether to alter guidelines so VAR only intervenes when a clear and obvious error is made.

While the protocol is set to be studied by the IFAB and debated by its members - namely the four home nations and FIFA - any decision would likely not be made until their annual meeting in March 2020. [@TimesSport]

 

[M12Blue]

What do you think?

The point is that the whole thing is under review. No reason to think that it is not genuine after all they have a vested interest in the credibility of the game.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/var-offside-decisions-under-review-8v8bdhmz7

Quite unbelievable that during its testing phase someone didn’t think about the issues match 1 has highlighted.

 

[M12Blue]

Did it? I've not seen any stats on that.

The problem is though that celebrations are going to be affected for more goals than were allowed or disallowed incorrectly under the old system.

The best moments of pretty much any game for the match going supporter are surely those euphoric moments when the ball hits the back of the opponents' net? Tampering with that is intensely dim IMO.

Not any more, it when VAR disallows a goal

 

[SilverFox2]

The human brain needs only 24fps to process still frames into video.

Until AI or its successor can do the same thing it is impossible to use only the 25fps that are recorded to find an exact match for the point of impact that determines whether another person is onside or not has simply not been recorded so to use one of the frames as its datum is simply wrong. As west didsdury stated there could be a movement of 250 mm in between frames.
Measuring less than that as being on or offside is simply incorrect.

 

[Dax777]

My worry is over analysis of the build up to goals.
VAR is now looking for reasons to rule out goals.
The game is definitely not better for this.
Initially I thought VAR would benefit attacking sides ( like us) but now I think the opposite.

That's a legitimate worry. They have to figure that out. Offsides, handballs and fouls in the box should all be checked. Anything else should be considered an acceptable miss within the flow of the game.

I.e. an uncalled foul at the halfway line. A throw in given to the wrong team e.t.c. errors that are not "critical" to the goal scored should not be reviewed.

But I can see how overtime, we'd hand over refereeing to technology all together :(

 

[NorCalBlue]

Even if VAR does not get involved, every time we score now I look to the ref, and wait. Is he getting a message?

l know VAR usually takes longer to rule out a goal, but I've always waited to celebrate on goals that could conceivably be ruled out for offside, to avoid the disappointment.

 

[flapjack]

no doubt in my mind that he goes to ignore the penalty and let west ham play on....look at his body shape, he turns and takes a step backwards.....then realises he can't because of VAR

 

[SWP's back]

Note richardtheref on here who is fully qualified is quite clear that the laws says that the top of the arm/shoulder is handball and that it shouldn’t have been used for the offside call.

So Balotelli scores with a handball?

 

[SWP's back]

Of course it is because there is no way they can allow a Liverpool or utd goal that close to be disallowed going forwards so best change it now.

Bluemoon: we need to review and change the offside law now var exists to give close decisions to the attacking team.

Officials: we are going to review the offside law now var is in place.

Bluemoon: ha! Knew it. It’s to help Liverpool and the Rags.

*christ on a stick*

 

[Neville Kneville]

At some point one assumes that they will be able to produce systems that track exactly in real time where the ball is and all the players are and thus have a system like goal line technology that can almost instantly inform the officials if a goal scorer or assister etc is onside. That may need some adjustment of the offside rule, which I believe is needed (as noted above). When we have that level of tech, it will be hard to argue against. We cannot be far off - surely it's a kind of hybrid of Opta and VAR; plus maybe AI.

I'm wondering who this Al is.

Al is ?

Al is ?

Who the fuck this AL is ?